Who, what, where, why and how? Witting or unwitting? Where are they, and how do they operate in America?
What is a definition of fascism in America? How does this differ, if it does, from what others see as corporatism?
Fascism in America
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Shirleypal
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Psychicwolf
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Definition of Fascism:
Fascism is an authoritarian nationalist ideology focused on solving economic, political, and social problems that its supporters see as causing national decline or decadence.[1][2][3][4] Fascist movements promote violent conflict between nations, political factions, races, and other people as part of a social Darwinist and militarist view that conflict between these groups is a natural process and a part of evolution in which only strong nations and races can survive and preserve their honour through competition, expansionism, and war.[5][6] Fascists aim to create a single-party state in which the government is led by a dictator who seeks unity by requiring individuals to subordinate self-interest to the collective interest of the nation or a race.[7][8][9]
Fascist governments permanently forbid and suppress all criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement.[10] Fascist movements oppose any ideology or political system that gives direct political power to people as individuals rather than as a collective through the state (liberalism, democracy, individualism); that is deemed detrimental to national identity and unity (class conflict, communism, internationalism, laissez-faire capitalism); that protects and enhances the power of "weak" people rather than promoting "strong" people (egalitarianism); that may oppose major changes to government and other institutions that it proposes (conservatism) and that undermine the military strength and military ambitions of the nation (pacifism).[11][12][13] [14][15][16][17][18][19][20]
Following the defeat of the Axis powers in World War II, the term fascist has been used as a pejorative word.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
Socialism:
Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equal opportunities for all individuals with a fair or egalitarian method of compensation. [1][2] Modern socialism originated in the late nineteenth-century working class political movement and the intellectual movement of that period which criticized the effects of industrialization and private ownership on society. Karl Marx posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution and would represent the transitional stage between capitalism and communism.[3][4]
The first socialists predicted a world improved by harnessing technology and combining it with better social organization, and many modern socialists share this belief [5][6], although modern socialists have a bigger emphasis on egalitarianism whereas traditional socialists favored meritocracy. Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital, creates an unequal society and does not provide equal opportunities for everyone in society to attain such status. Therefore socialists advocate the creation of a society in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly based on merit or the amount of work expended, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.[1]
Socialism is not a concrete philosophy of fixed doctrine and program; its branches advocate a degree of social interventionism and economic rationalization, sometimes opposing each other. Another dividing feature of the socialist movement is the split on how a socialist economy should be established between the reformists and the revolutionaries. Some socialists advocate complete nationalization of the means of production, distribution, and exchange; while others advocate state control of capital within the framework of a market economy. Socialists inspired by the Soviet model of economic development, have advocated the creation of centrally planned economies directed by a state that owns all the means of production. Others, including Yugoslavian, Hungarian, Polish and Chinese Communists in the 1970s and 1980s, instituted various forms of market socialism combining co-operative and State ownership models with the free market exchange and free price system.[7] Social democrats propose selective nationalization of key national industries in mixed economies combined with tax-funded welfare programs and the regulation of markets; Libertarian socialism (which includes Social anarchism and Libertarian Marxism) rejects state control and ownership of the economy altogether and advocates direct collective ownership of the means of production via co-operative workers' councils and workplace democracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
Fascism is an authoritarian nationalist ideology focused on solving economic, political, and social problems that its supporters see as causing national decline or decadence.[1][2][3][4] Fascist movements promote violent conflict between nations, political factions, races, and other people as part of a social Darwinist and militarist view that conflict between these groups is a natural process and a part of evolution in which only strong nations and races can survive and preserve their honour through competition, expansionism, and war.[5][6] Fascists aim to create a single-party state in which the government is led by a dictator who seeks unity by requiring individuals to subordinate self-interest to the collective interest of the nation or a race.[7][8][9]
Fascist governments permanently forbid and suppress all criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement.[10] Fascist movements oppose any ideology or political system that gives direct political power to people as individuals rather than as a collective through the state (liberalism, democracy, individualism); that is deemed detrimental to national identity and unity (class conflict, communism, internationalism, laissez-faire capitalism); that protects and enhances the power of "weak" people rather than promoting "strong" people (egalitarianism); that may oppose major changes to government and other institutions that it proposes (conservatism) and that undermine the military strength and military ambitions of the nation (pacifism).[11][12][13] [14][15][16][17][18][19][20]
Following the defeat of the Axis powers in World War II, the term fascist has been used as a pejorative word.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
Socialism:
Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equal opportunities for all individuals with a fair or egalitarian method of compensation. [1][2] Modern socialism originated in the late nineteenth-century working class political movement and the intellectual movement of that period which criticized the effects of industrialization and private ownership on society. Karl Marx posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution and would represent the transitional stage between capitalism and communism.[3][4]
The first socialists predicted a world improved by harnessing technology and combining it with better social organization, and many modern socialists share this belief [5][6], although modern socialists have a bigger emphasis on egalitarianism whereas traditional socialists favored meritocracy. Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital, creates an unequal society and does not provide equal opportunities for everyone in society to attain such status. Therefore socialists advocate the creation of a society in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly based on merit or the amount of work expended, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.[1]
Socialism is not a concrete philosophy of fixed doctrine and program; its branches advocate a degree of social interventionism and economic rationalization, sometimes opposing each other. Another dividing feature of the socialist movement is the split on how a socialist economy should be established between the reformists and the revolutionaries. Some socialists advocate complete nationalization of the means of production, distribution, and exchange; while others advocate state control of capital within the framework of a market economy. Socialists inspired by the Soviet model of economic development, have advocated the creation of centrally planned economies directed by a state that owns all the means of production. Others, including Yugoslavian, Hungarian, Polish and Chinese Communists in the 1970s and 1980s, instituted various forms of market socialism combining co-operative and State ownership models with the free market exchange and free price system.[7] Social democrats propose selective nationalization of key national industries in mixed economies combined with tax-funded welfare programs and the regulation of markets; Libertarian socialism (which includes Social anarchism and Libertarian Marxism) rejects state control and ownership of the economy altogether and advocates direct collective ownership of the means of production via co-operative workers' councils and workplace democracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
Dance to heal the earth. Not just when you're dancing, but always. Live the dance, whenever you move, in all you do, dance to heal the earth.
Do not agree fascism is socialism. In my mind - socialism is ownership of institutions and especially businesses by the people via the 'state' (government).
Fascism is control of people, assets, business - through government (which they control).
Psychicwolf, I should have qualified my question here - want to know how we (forum members) define fascism, and where and how it is operating here in America.
We do not have to be correct. Just wanted to get some spontaneous information here - what we believe fascism to be, etc - and if/where and through whom it is operating in America.
Fascism is control of people, assets, business - through government (which they control).
Psychicwolf, I should have qualified my question here - want to know how we (forum members) define fascism, and where and how it is operating here in America.
We do not have to be correct. Just wanted to get some spontaneous information here - what we believe fascism to be, etc - and if/where and through whom it is operating in America.
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Shirleypal
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Psychicwolf
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Truth be told, we are supposed to have a representative Republic per our founding documents, but that has been pretty well bastardized by events, politicians and the courts, especially in the later 20th Century. I am not a huge fan of the founding father's themselves, although what they created has great beauty and is a wonderful ideal.
The question is: are we evolved enough to actually govern to that ideal?
Linn's question is do we have fascism in this country and my personal opinion is yes to a certain degree.
The use of taxpayer dollars (which are actually IOUs through Treasury note sales to foreign countries) to bail out financial institutions and businesses is fascism in my opinion. And the Bush Doctrine of preemptive war as a foreign policy is fascist. The out of favor political party likes to call it socialism, but socialism is the use of the collective of individual's resources for the good of the whole. Bailouts for irresponsible monetary policy, irresponsible business practice and bullying Empiric aspirations do not benefit a society, they benefit wealthy individuals and stakeholder and ideology.
We also, as individuals, and with the help of our educators and MSM have been lax about holding our leaders responsible for maintaining our republic and serving their constituents instead of themselves.
The question is: are we evolved enough to actually govern to that ideal?
Linn's question is do we have fascism in this country and my personal opinion is yes to a certain degree.
The use of taxpayer dollars (which are actually IOUs through Treasury note sales to foreign countries) to bail out financial institutions and businesses is fascism in my opinion. And the Bush Doctrine of preemptive war as a foreign policy is fascist. The out of favor political party likes to call it socialism, but socialism is the use of the collective of individual's resources for the good of the whole. Bailouts for irresponsible monetary policy, irresponsible business practice and bullying Empiric aspirations do not benefit a society, they benefit wealthy individuals and stakeholder and ideology.
We also, as individuals, and with the help of our educators and MSM have been lax about holding our leaders responsible for maintaining our republic and serving their constituents instead of themselves.
Dance to heal the earth. Not just when you're dancing, but always. Live the dance, whenever you move, in all you do, dance to heal the earth.
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Psychicwolf
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Amidst all the noise of the events taking place in our country, I have found and been influenced by U.S. anthropologist and historian, Joseph Tainter. I was turned on to his 1988 book The Collapse of Complex Societies . I highly recommend it. It resonated with me, and having dated a population ecologist entomologist a few years ago, I understood the concept of complexity in a society eventually reaching a point of diminishing return.
I would prefer that we approach the bank insolvency problem with a temporary nationalization of the bad banks, putting the taxpayer first in line for repayment as opposed to more money into the black hole or an aggregate bank buying only the toxic assets from banks where the taxpayer comes last behind the stockholders, bond holders etc.
Sweden, which is a socialist country, did this with their banks when they were threatened and came out well in 4 years. This is an example of socialism providing for the common good as well as the capitalistic and societal good.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/lates ... p?id=13207
I would prefer that we approach the bank insolvency problem with a temporary nationalization of the bad banks, putting the taxpayer first in line for repayment as opposed to more money into the black hole or an aggregate bank buying only the toxic assets from banks where the taxpayer comes last behind the stockholders, bond holders etc.
Sweden, which is a socialist country, did this with their banks when they were threatened and came out well in 4 years. This is an example of socialism providing for the common good as well as the capitalistic and societal good.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/lates ... p?id=13207
Dance to heal the earth. Not just when you're dancing, but always. Live the dance, whenever you move, in all you do, dance to heal the earth.
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Bobbi Snow
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When we don't have the willpower or the politicians who are of the people and by the people working for the people, fascism has it's place. If we don't WANT fascism, then we should STOP letting the Republicans steal our power and our money, and take control of our own affairs.
What??? Would you all rather we adhere to the Sarah Palin philosophies?
What??? Would you all rather we adhere to the Sarah Palin philosophies?
If you're still breathing, it's not too late!Is the system of lobbying the government, as out of control as it seems, a form of fascism? Or, does fascism imply some central control (individuals - hidden agendas- dark evil ongoing)?
How do you define 'corporatism'? Anyone?
There are some very powerful families, corporations, individuals - how are they involved in government, even world government.
To me these things have always seemed vague. I hear things, of course, but I am entirely ignorant.
How do you define 'corporatism'? Anyone?
There are some very powerful families, corporations, individuals - how are they involved in government, even world government.
To me these things have always seemed vague. I hear things, of course, but I am entirely ignorant.
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Shirleypal
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I don't think the system of lobbying is bad in itself, they have done many good things for people on a local, state and national level that protect and benefit us, on the other hand some has been for private interest and doesn't benefit us a a whole, like everything it's a double edged sword.
Historically, corporatism (Italian: corporativismo) refers to a political or economic system in which power is held by civic assemblies that represent economic, industrial, agrarian, social, cultural, and/or professional groups. These civic assemblies are known as corporations (not the same as the legally incorporated business entities known as corporations, though some are such). Corporations are unelected bodies with an internal hierarchy; their purpose is to exert control over the social and economic life of their respective areas. Source: Wikipedia
Linnea I think many confuse corporatism with corporations, according to the above description it can be very confusing. It reminds me of the mining towns in the past when lives were owed (and owned) by and to the company store.
Bottom line seems to be too many private agendas by the very wealthy in this country.
Historically, corporatism (Italian: corporativismo) refers to a political or economic system in which power is held by civic assemblies that represent economic, industrial, agrarian, social, cultural, and/or professional groups. These civic assemblies are known as corporations (not the same as the legally incorporated business entities known as corporations, though some are such). Corporations are unelected bodies with an internal hierarchy; their purpose is to exert control over the social and economic life of their respective areas. Source: Wikipedia
Linnea I think many confuse corporatism with corporations, according to the above description it can be very confusing. It reminds me of the mining towns in the past when lives were owed (and owned) by and to the company store.
Bottom line seems to be too many private agendas by the very wealthy in this country.
I differentiate among totalitarian fascism (on the right), totalitarian communism (on the left) and democratic socialism (in the middle). The fact that the debased, degenerate and doomed Amerikan people regard fascism as being socialism (e.g. "Oh mah Gawd, Dubya has turned socialist!," a statement that I heard over and over again last October) is just as sign of just how terminally programmed they are. They don't know a damn thing about economics (except how to make the minimal payment on their credit cards), and they never will.
I have been saying for years --- and not just in cyber-space either! --- that unless you are making 250K a year, then you are a God-damned fool to embrace a capitalist form of socio-economic organization (for capitalism is, ultimately, a state of mind and an existential attitude toward the universe). An ecologically-based, constitutionally-bound socialism is our only chance for survival. And what this statement really means is: prepare to die in the not-too-distant future!
And as far as the presence of fascism in Obama's Amerika is concerned, let me say this. You have heard the phrase, usually in connection with psi and UFOs: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Well, as far as contemporary fascism in Amerika is concerned, let me change it: evidence of absence is most assuredly evidence of presence! Everybody's waving the red flag at this moment (just as they did in the spring of 1933), but don't be fooled: Amerika was born on the grab-n-git, and Amerika will die on the grab-n-git. The fascists are temporarily hiding under their rocks --- yes, even within The Fantastic Forum --- and as soon as the Obamabots begin to stumble, they will be out again with their fangs and their claws! And when it happens, remember that I warned you in advance about it!
I have been saying for years --- and not just in cyber-space either! --- that unless you are making 250K a year, then you are a God-damned fool to embrace a capitalist form of socio-economic organization (for capitalism is, ultimately, a state of mind and an existential attitude toward the universe). An ecologically-based, constitutionally-bound socialism is our only chance for survival. And what this statement really means is: prepare to die in the not-too-distant future!
And as far as the presence of fascism in Obama's Amerika is concerned, let me say this. You have heard the phrase, usually in connection with psi and UFOs: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Well, as far as contemporary fascism in Amerika is concerned, let me change it: evidence of absence is most assuredly evidence of presence! Everybody's waving the red flag at this moment (just as they did in the spring of 1933), but don't be fooled: Amerika was born on the grab-n-git, and Amerika will die on the grab-n-git. The fascists are temporarily hiding under their rocks --- yes, even within The Fantastic Forum --- and as soon as the Obamabots begin to stumble, they will be out again with their fangs and their claws! And when it happens, remember that I warned you in advance about it!
Last edited by joequinn on 02-04-2009 10:35 AM, edited 1 time in total.
"Fuggedah about it, Jake --- it's Chinatown!"
joequinn wrote: The fascists are temporarily hiding under their rocks --- yes, even within The Fantastic Forum --- and as soon as the Obamabots begin to stumble, they will be out again with their fangs and their claws! And when it happens, remember that I warned you in advance about it!
Unlike the "fascists" you already have your fangs and claws out, joequinn.
racehorse
Ahoy, racehorse! Glad to see you posting in this thread. 
Would appreciate anything constructive, and hopefully substantive on the topic.
Seriously want to know what we all think about this 'Fascism in America' - as put forth in the opening post.
The fangs and claws thing is very sexy, but it would be fabulous if we could also shed some light on this topic - from our own varied perspectives.
Really looking forward to your thoughts on this.
I believe this is an important issue - and I really hope this thread does not get completely derailed.
Would appreciate anything constructive, and hopefully substantive on the topic.
Seriously want to know what we all think about this 'Fascism in America' - as put forth in the opening post.
The fangs and claws thing is very sexy, but it would be fabulous if we could also shed some light on this topic - from our own varied perspectives.
Really looking forward to your thoughts on this.
I believe this is an important issue - and I really hope this thread does not get completely derailed.
Linnea wrote: Ahoy, racehorse! Glad to see you posting in this thread.
Would appreciate anything constructive, and hopefully substantive on the topic.
Seriously want to know what we all think about this 'Fascism in America' - as put forth in the opening post.
The fangs and claws thing is very sexy, but it would be fabulous if we could also shed some light on this topic - from our own varied perspectives.
Really looking forward to your thoughts on this.
I believe this is an important issue - and I really hope this thread does not get completely derailed.
I think that Fascism is not much of a threat in this country and has not been in a very long time. To be sure this country has and always had Fascists but the term is currently usually misapplied by some and definitely not most Liberals and Progressives to include nearly any political Conservarive. To be fair, some Conservatives also freely use the term "Communist" just as loosely to describe nearly any Liberal or Progressive.
Examples in my mind of real Fascists are of course Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini. In this country, real Fascists include or have included such people as Huey Long, David Duke, Lester Maddox, Eugene "Bull" Connor, Harold Covington, Richard Butler, and George Lincoln Rockwell. These are/were all truly "dangerous" people but only Long, Maddox, and to a far lesser extent Connor had any real power or influence.
People like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity. Laura Ingaraham, President Ronald Reagan, President George Herbert Walker Bush, and even President Richard Nixon who was really quite Moderate or Liberal by GOP standards are all routinely assailed by some as examples of true "Fascists" and this is incorrect. Conservatism and the Republican party is not Fascism if the term is applied correctly.
Likewise people like Keith Olbermann, Rachel Maddow, Jesse Jackson, George McGovern, and yes even President Obama are assailed by some Conservatives as examples of true "Communists". This is incorrect and just as wrong. Liberalism, or if you prefer "Progressivsm" and the Democratic party is not Communism if the term is applied correctly.
If we apply the terms incorrectly, there will never be much progress made at consensus at solving the country's problems and making it a better place for all of us to live our dreams.
I don't believe there are any "Fascists" on this ship, not one! I also don't believe there are any "Communists" on this ship, not one! If those who apply rhetoric freely in this regard are to be believed that is about all we have on this ship and even worse throughout our government and nation itself within the general population. It is simply not true. All of us are better that and working together we can accomlish much. Divided into "Fascists" and "Communists" we accomplish nothing.
Last edited by racehorse on 02-05-2009 08:56 AM, edited 1 time in total.
racehorse
Precisely so Racehorse.
These terms, facist, communist, go beyond classifying an individual to simple name-calling that serves no value in learning about where we (USA) are and where we're headed, IMHO.
These terms, facist, communist, go beyond classifying an individual to simple name-calling that serves no value in learning about where we (USA) are and where we're headed, IMHO.
"We can't solve problems with the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." – Albert Einstein