Colin Powell slams Bush on detainees, might vote for Obama

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Colin Powell slams Bush on detainees, might vote for Obama

Post by Kaztronic » 06-15-2008 07:55 PM

Doug Ward, Vancouver Sun
Published: Friday, June 13, 2008

He was a four-star American general, the secretary of state during President George W. Bush's first term and remains a Republican.

But Colin Powell said Thursday in Vancouver that he is considering voting for Democrat Barack Obama in November -- and he took shots at the Bush administration's handling of the Iraq war and the holding of terrorism suspects in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Powell told a crowd of about 1,000 people at the Vancouver Convention & Exhibition Centre that he hasn't decided whether to support Obama or Republican John McCain for the U.S. presidency.


Colin Powell at a news conference Thursday before delivering speech at the Vancouver Convention & Exhibition Centre.
Ian Lindsay, Vancouver Sun

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Font:****Powell said that Obama's life story sums up the "American dream" and he described McCain as the "toughest man I've ever met."

Powell said he told both candidates recently that he has not decided which one will have his coveted endorsement.

The African-American former general said his decision won't be based on the race or military experience of the candidates, but on their passion and policies.

The former secretary of state discussed the controversy that drew a small but loud protest outside the convention centre -- Powell's use of flawed intelligence during his 2003 presentation at the United Nations to sell the world on the invasion of Iraq.

Powell told the audience that he wouldn't have agreed with the decision to go to war had he known that the data about Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein having weapons of mass destruction was exaggerated.

Powell said that every word of what he called his "infamous" presentation about WMD had been vetted by the intelligence community -- "and I had no reason to disbelieve it."

The former secretary of state has previously described his prewar UN speech as a "blot" on his record.

Powell went on to say that the Bush administration fell into "disarray" over how to govern Iraq after it overthrew Hussein.

"If we had handled the aftermath of the fall of Baghdad differently then we wouldn't be where we are today," said Powell.

He said the new president should "draw down" the number of American troops in Iraq and hand more responsibility to Iraqi forces.

Powell said the use of torture and denial of habeas corpus at the prison for suspected terrorists at the U.S. military base in Guantanamo has diminished America's standing in the world. "It [Guantanamo] is not a seen as a place that is consistent with what America says justice will be."

Powell said the harshness of Guantanamo has also given "cover to a lot of really bad people around the world who say: 'Hey, don't lecture me, look at what you're doing.' "

Powell said that torture, including water-boarding, should stop at Guantanamo and that terrorism suspects should be given lawyers and afforded all the rights of the American criminal justice system.

Powell also said that the American war on terrorism has gone too far in deterring foreigners from entering the U.S., and rules governing entry to the U.S. must be relaxed.

Many well-qualified people from around the world are deciding not to study at American universities or work at medical clinics because of their fear of being hassled by U.S. authorities, he added.

"We will not be terrified into changing our way of life because of some guy [Osama bin Laden] hiding in a cave somewhere in Afghanistan."

Vancouver Sun
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Re: Colin Powell slams Bush on detainees, might vote for Oba

Post by lazarus long » 06-15-2008 08:52 PM

Kaztronic wrote: Powell told the audience that he wouldn't have agreed with the decision to go to war had he known that the data about Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein having weapons of mass destruction was exaggerated.

Powell said that every word of what he called his "infamous" presentation about WMD had been vetted by the intelligence community -- "and I had no reason to disbelieve it."


while it's great that he's seen the error of his ways, i feel like powell's being less than honest about his role. the air force and the department of energy met with him before that infamous un speech. the air force told him that the iraqis DID NOT HAVE UNMANNED AERIAL VEHICLES capable of delivering wmd's (that they also didn't have). the department of energy told him that those fabled aluminum tubes weren't suited for uranium enrichment. it appears, to me at least, that he chose to ignore the facts and toed the party line. he "took one for the team," in other words.
Kaztronic wrote: "We will not be terrified into changing our way of life because of some guy [Osama bin Laden] hiding in a cave somewhere in Afghanistan."[/B] ]


that's a noble sentiment, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the reality that we see everyday. to say that our lifestyles haven't been changed is delusional. apparently, he hasn't been to an airport in a while.

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Post by vrpodpilot » 06-15-2008 09:06 PM

The decision to Invade Iraq was sold to the American People and Collin Powell through Lies and Propaganda.

Collin Powell is respected and trusted by most Americans, and it's interesting that he seems to be blamed more for the Wrongful Iraq Invasion than the people who sold him a false Bill of Goods. That's because We trust Him to look out for our Country's Best Interests.

We are all to blame for being snookered into this conflict! I myself fell prey to the propaganda machine. During the PreWar Game Show on our National News Television Media, they were displaying a collage of photos taken in Iraq, showing Hussien's accomplishments as a dictator.

There was one photo in particular that I can recall vividly today. It was of a young Kurdish Girl and her Baby, lying dead on the ground from gas.

My exwife and best friend were discussing the topic of Iraq and I remember telling her "I don't care about WMD! That's (The Photo) all the justification I need! We need to killem all (The Elite Republican Guard)! That's when Rose touched my shoulder and said "That's why they showed you that Photo!

I had fallen victim to our Propaganda Machine, even though I prided myself on being immune to it and being able to identify Propaganda.

As Americans, all of us are collectively responsible. And together we need to stand against these tyrants who have taken over our America, and legally restore order. I'm still trying to figure out how we do that, but I know it will take a lot more than electing a new President.

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Post by lazarus long » 06-15-2008 09:31 PM

i appreciate your points, vr. i have to disagree with the assertions that colin was duped, as he did have access to the information as well as the "intelligence." the air force and doe told him what was what, point blank. it is possible that he felt that they were pushing some weird, secret agenda, but in retrospect, it seems more likely that he was just following orders, which is no excuse at all.
also, have you considered that we may have progressed to a point where a lawful and peaceful solution to our woes may be logistically impossible? it seems pretty evident that many of the new laws seem aimed at silencing any serious critics of our current system. they'll hear you talking smack about the government on your cell-phone with a warrantless wire-tap (i'm still waiting on some of our "patriotic" posters to explain the need for that one to me). they'll pick you up and hold you without charges in some floating gulag. they'll waterboard you and electrocute you until you tell them anything that they want to hear. then you'll be charged as a "domestic terrorist" and hanged or gassed or maybe you'll just be shot "while trying to escape."

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Post by Kaztronic » 06-15-2008 11:46 PM

vrpodpilot wrote:

We are all to blame for being snookered into this conflict! I myself fell prey to the propaganda machine. During the PreWar Game Show on our National News Television Media, they were displaying a collage of photos taken in Iraq, showing Hussien's accomplishments as a dictator.

There was one photo in particular that I can recall vividly today. It was of a young Kurdish Girl and her Baby, lying dead on the ground from gas.

My exwife and best friend were discussing the topic of Iraq and I remember telling her "I don't care about WMD! That's (The Photo) all the justification I need! We need to killem all (The Elite Republican Guard)! That's when Rose touched my shoulder and said "That's why they showed you that Photo!

I had fallen victim to our Propaganda Machine, even though I prided myself on being immune to it and being able to identify Propaganda.


I have to admit, I fell victim to the propoganda being pumped out of the White House as well on a near daily basis.

Like you, I couldn't have cared less about the WMD. The man had gassed his own people, he was firing on our planes patrolling the no-fly zone, and he was playing games with the U.N. Inspectors! It was all I needed to know.

My decision to support the war at that time was ill-considered and short-sighted. It never crossed my mind that we could win a war, and have absolutely no capable leaders to deal with the aftermath and our responsibility to the people of a nation we had just conquered.

This war was a terrible mistake. Only history will tell us just how much damage we caused, and whether or not we remedied the problem after the fact.
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Post by Kaztronic » 06-15-2008 11:53 PM

lazarus long wrote:
also, have you considered that we may have progressed to a point where a lawful and peaceful solution to our woes may be logistically impossible? it seems pretty evident that many of the new laws seem aimed at silencing any serious critics of our current system. they'll hear you talking smack about the government on your cell-phone with a warrantless wire-tap (i'm still waiting on some of our "patriotic" posters to explain the need for that one to me). they'll pick you up and hold you without charges in some floating gulag. they'll waterboard you and electrocute you until you tell them anything that they want to hear. then you'll be charged as a "domestic terrorist" and hanged or gassed or maybe you'll just be shot "while trying to escape."


Sadly this is not a new development. The government has been prepared for decades to deal with any threat to it's control for decades.

Check out the links below to articles on "Operation Garden Plot" and "Rex 84".

Solutions outside of the law are near impossible at this point, the camps are ready, the logistics for dealing with it all in place.

The response will not be Katrina like, it will be "shock and awe".

Solutions within the law are still possible in my opinion, election of the right leaders over time can change the tone and direction of our government - at least that is my hope.

Operation Garden Plot

Rex 84
Last edited by Kaztronic on 06-16-2008 12:15 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Iris » 06-16-2008 12:11 AM

Vrpodpilot, as Americans all of us are most certainly not collectively responsible. Some of us were against that war all along.

Powell was far more than just horribly mistaken: the evidence is conclusive that he fabricated evidence and ignored repeated warnings that what he was saying was false.

Read about it here:
http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/002063.html

I got thrown off track by phone calls when writing this post and lost my momentum, but if you google things like "Colin Powel guilty" and "Lawrence Wilkerson" you will learn a lot. I used to have it book marked on my old computer where there was a bunch of videos of Wilkerson talking at... um... I want to say a college... anyway, they were very revealing. I think that was the first time Wilkerson started to talk. I know I posted about it here at the time.

So anyway, a bunch of us never believed the hype and a bunch of us lost respect for Powell long ago.

Now, if he can bring some voters to Obama, good.
Last edited by Iris on 06-16-2008 12:18 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by lazarus long » 06-16-2008 12:37 AM

Kaztronic wrote: Sadly this is not a new development. The government has been prepared for decades to deal with any threat to it's control for decades.

Check out the links below to articles on "Operation Garden Plot" and "Rex 84".

Solutions outside of the law are near impossible at this point, the camps are ready, the logistics for dealing with it all in place.

The response will not be Katrina like, it will be "shock and awe".

Solutions within the law are still possible in my opinion, election of the right leaders over time can change the tone and direction of our government - at least that is my hope.

Operation Garden Plot

Rex 84

i hear you. i am familiar with those contingency plans. the whole problem is this "continuity of government" bs. there's no provision made for a government that's broken and not serving the needs of its people. that's not the way this government was supposed to work and not the way that it was set up. it was assumed that the government would become corrupt and inefficient, as the laws of entropy apply to governmental systems as well as everything else. when it becomes too large and bound up in red-tape, we take it all down and start again. if the government refuses to be cleansed, it greatly limits the options of the populace.
a government cannot suppress the will of the people indefinitely. i don't care how it's set up.

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Post by vrpodpilot » 06-17-2008 04:44 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Iris
Vrpodpilot, as Americans all of us are most certainly not collectively responsible. Some of us were against that war all along.

I sometimes don't explain myself fully enough, please forgive.

When I said We Americans as a Collective, I was speaking beyond the Powell situation and thinking about the overall condition of our country. I will study the Link when I'm done here.

It is my belief that we are all responsoble for the level of political corruption that we are suffering from now. Corporations, Political Ideoligists, and Individual Greed of Leaders has reduced us to a collection of sqaubbling ethnic and economic centralists (I believe is the word), that from my perspective, are so concerned with Self that they forget the Whole, which is our strength.

The situation we Americans find ourselves in, was not developed in one generation, but several. Far to long Politicians and Others have systematically committed wrongs and we as Citizens have allowed Their Peers (Corrupt Leaders) to dispense justice!

We have exclaimed outrage and then let the Corrupt put on a "Big Show" about how they're cleaning up themselves, while we go back to our daily responsibilities, thinking that "We showed Them". Meanwhile America has continued to slide ever deeper into the Crapper. The old "Two steps forward and one step back", plan works very well with Corruption, as well as Gas Prices.

Our system of Checks and Balances has been thwarted by devious corrupt individuals, and it is my opinion that we need to add a fourth body to defend the Constituion, and reapply balance to the Legislative, Executive and Judicial.

My thoughts are not complete yet, but I see a body of part time assembly. Consisting of six college students and six military enlisted personel (all below the age of 22), seated similar to a Grand Jury.

Basically, a Balance of Young Idealistic Liberal and Conservative Minds, not yet jaded by life, still believing in Black and White, not Gray Areas of Intuerpretation.

For those who question non-college educated personnel, I would reply that Common Sense is easily found among Common People.

But, unlike a Grand Jury hearing arguments from lawyers, this Jury would have Investigative Powers to pursue evidence of Political Corruption, through any goverment file or agency, and it's findings would be transparent to the American People.

Enforcement Powers of this Jury would be supplied by the US Military and the Jury's Conduct would be controlled by The Articles of The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). I see the Military being servant to the Jury's Board during the investigation.

I see all Public Servants being held accountable for their actions under the UCMJ, not the Criminal and Civil Judicial System reserved for Civilians.

For those not aware, under the UCMJ, someone accused of an infraction is Guilty until Proven Innocent.

Politicians and Bearucrates serve this Country, and Deserve to be held accountable by the most Powerful and Unforgiving Justice this Country knows.

I also see civilian corporations and it's employees held accountable under the UCMJ, in so far as their actual contractural agreements and employees interact with the Goverment.

I can assure you all, that simply the likelyhood of discernment from the UCMJ will send waves of terror through villians, who laugh at Civilian Justice.

I have more thoughts but don't want to bore you. I need to get the Bullseye drawn on my fore head now. :D

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Post by vrpodpilot » 06-17-2008 04:55 PM

lazarus long wrote: i appreciate your points, vr. i have to disagree with the assertions that colin was duped, as he did have access to the information as well as the "intelligence." the air force and doe told him what was what, point blank. it is possible that he felt that they were pushing some weird, secret agenda, but in retrospect, it seems more likely that he was just following orders, which is no excuse at all.


As far as having access to info, I don't know, so I'm withholding Judgement. I have heard that Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfield were the Trio of Terror that outlined what would and wouldn't make the official reports.

You are absolutely Right, that following orders is no excuse, and not one that a real Military Man would even think about using. It was drilled into my head along with others, that no matter what your rank, you have a responsibility to not follow immoral or illegal orders, and stop through proper action anyone who is.

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Post by vrpodpilot » 06-17-2008 05:40 PM

lazarus long wrote: also, have you considered that we may have progressed to a point where a lawful and peaceful solution to our woes may be logistically impossible? it seems pretty evident that many of the new laws seem aimed at silencing any serious critics of our current system. they'll hear you talking smack about the government on your cell-phone with a warrantless wire-tap (i'm still waiting on some of our "patriotic" posters to explain the need for that one to me). they'll pick you up and hold you without charges in some floating gulag. they'll waterboard you and electrocute you until you tell them anything that they want to hear. then you'll be charged as a "domestic terrorist" and hanged or gassed or maybe you'll just be shot "while trying to escape."


I have considered this, and always I prefer to offer a possible a solution to a problem.

There is one group of people in this country that is more powerful than all the Politicians, the Corporations, The Bankers, and even the Military. This group of people has the ability to completely shutdown the American Economic Engine for a day or a year, at a cost of Billions per day.

If these people acted they could bring Politicians, Corporations, and Bankers to their knees within minutes, just by applying a little civil disobiedence. Once this group acted, and if people across America united behind their effort, Washington would change overnight.

The only problem is that this group lacks a skilled leader of unquestionable character, to unite them.

You see this group of people actually enjoys fighting and argueing with each other as much as it hates Politicians. That's because their each strongly opinionated, hard headed, and love to fight. Obviously alot of them are ex-military! They are also extremely Patriotic, wheter Demo or Repub, and would do anything for this country.

I'm talking about Long Haul Truck Drivers, not especially the local Drivers. Guys like me, that transport every commodity that this nation consumes or produces. You have a Long Haul Trucker Strike, with demands for Political reform, backed by the populace of America, and you have a legal non-violent (mostly) revolt against Political Corruption.

But first, we citizens have to believe in JFK's Quote - "Ask not what your Country can do for You, but what You can do for your Country".

Right now we are a Nation of Dual Citizenships. African-American, Asian-American, Mexican-American, and so on. We have been divided and conquered.

I'm just an American, interested in re-establishing the (unrealized yet) American March toward an Ideal Society of Freedom, Justice, and Opportuntiy!

What are You!

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Post by vrpodpilot » 06-17-2008 05:46 PM

Kaztronic wrote: I have to admit, I fell victim to the propoganda being pumped out of the White House as well on a near daily basis.

Like you, I couldn't have cared less about the WMD. The man had gassed his own people, he was firing on our planes patrolling the no-fly zone, and he was playing games with the U.N. Inspectors! It was all I needed to know.

My decision to support the war at that time was ill-considered and short-sighted. It never crossed my mind that we could win a war, and have absolutely no capable leaders to deal with the aftermath and our responsibility to the people of a nation we had just conquered.

This war was a terrible mistake. Only history will tell us just how much damage we caused, and whether or not we remedied the problem after the fact.


Kaz, I'm sure there will be a special place in HE!! for people who push our buttons, and cause much in the way of Human Misery, for their profit.

I keep telling myself, it's just Life and we'll get through it, back to the Good Place.:)

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Post by vrpodpilot » 06-17-2008 06:05 PM

Iris wrote: So anyway, a bunch of us never believed the hype and a bunch of us lost respect for Powell long ago.

Now, if he can bring some voters to Obama, good.


I have many problems with Powell myself. I do know from my study of him that he is an accomplished politician, as are all Generals.

I have also personally met a Three Star Army General, in 1995, that was riding on Powell's coat tails of popularity, claiming that he has a good friend of Powells, serving in Vietnam together.

I was personaly disgusted by this individual's Values and lack of Duty. I won't go into it further, but this individual did not in my opinion deserve to wear the uniform.

If you think Obama has problems with friends and associates, you would be aghast upon meeting this person.

My statements about Trust in Powell, was from a national perspective of his character, percieved by the general public, before the Iraq War.

So cut me some slack Chick.:D

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