A Field Guide to Internet Trolls

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Post by Fan » 11-14-2011 10:40 AM

Troll is an easy term to throw around, but in fact it is a very specific thing. If I see trolling I will intervene. Trolling is done ONLY to disrupt a board, not to have a conversation.

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Post by HB3 » 11-14-2011 10:45 AM

I was called a troll mostly by one very aggressive poster because I dared to stand up against his liberal bullying. So did Joe Quinn, by the way. Quinn's last post on this board is a post defending me from this.

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Post by Dale O Sea » 11-14-2011 10:55 AM

You may call me whatever. Dale is fine. Just sayin..

I went back and looked a little and you were labeled worse than a troll - you were lumped with cherry kelly in the Rush-pyle as a Limbaugh listener. Back then I think trolls were more feared and rush listeners dismissed and otherwise marginalized. You were also very nice in posts. This helps. Besides, you arrived in the era of Rombaldi who drowns out all but the loudest troll by several dBs..

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Post by HB3 » 11-14-2011 11:05 AM

"Troll," indeed, can be a very politicized term. I prefer something more straightforward, like "asshole." But, yes, the politics of this board were such that the most fascistic and vitriolic liberals could say the most ****ed up things and get away with it; this was an education in its own way. It helped me to understand the true nature of modern liberalism, and I say this as a former liberal. Or a current "classic liberal," however you want to say it. It's an ongoing problem that I don't know how to define myself using contemporary terminology.

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Post by Dale O Sea » 11-14-2011 11:21 AM

HB3 wrote: "Troll," indeed, can be a very politicized term. I prefer something more straightforward, like "asshole." But, yes, the politics of this board were such that the most fascistic and vitriolic liberals could say the most ****ed up things and get away with it; this was an education in its own way. It helped me to understand the true nature of modern liberalism, and I say this as a former liberal. Or a current "classic liberal," however you want to say it. It's an ongoing problem that I don't know how to define myself using contemporary terminology.
That works..asshat is more charming tho. Yes, the atmosphere here is now much more open than it once was. Remember the big freeper scare? Now I remember why I recall you being tagged a troll. It wasn't troll, it was freeper. Linnea asked me, not sure why me, that if I thought you were one of them freepers. I didn't even know what they were - readers of the free press? I said no.

The politics changes but people are people and have pretty much the same needs all the time. Those aren't being met now like they once were. Not for us unelected commoners anyway. Did you catch this 60 Minutes piece:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-5 ... formation/

Sickening how the gaping the gap is between us voters and the ones we elect. :realmad:

Someone should post that in proper thread.

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Post by HB3 » 11-14-2011 12:45 PM

That must've been awhile ago. "Freeper" refers to the Free Republic, a right-wing website I could never make head or tail of. But yeah, though not a "freeper," I'm sure I could be seen as a lot worse than that anyway. They represent sort of a facile and superficial conservatism, as far as I know.

But Linnea and I became pretty close, and when she found out about my book manuscript, she did all this amazing work on it, spending hours and hours proofreading and making other editorial corrections. It wouldn't have been published without her.

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Post by Raggedyann » 11-14-2011 02:46 PM

People shouldn't be labeled as trolls because their posts don't total 5000, or their POV differs from the mindset of the majority of the posters, or because some posters can't come up with a decent counterargument.
Last edited by Raggedyann on 11-14-2011 02:55 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by bobbo » 11-14-2011 02:58 PM

Dale---I was never going to out you and will not discuss it even now. EDIT #5: I do hate "personality posting" what anyone likes or dislikes. I don't care. More for the ideas and more than that the basis for the idea-ie=the "facts." With facts, I can form my own ideas/opinions. Opinions are defined by and worth only the facts that back them up. Too many have opinions, and no facts, or worse=their facts are wrong or even most worse: intentionally wrong for the point of one manipulation or another. Often wrapped in a demand for civility. I HATE IT. Perfidy on the hoof. ....Ha, ha. What I meant to say==I don't think and will never think of anyone here as my "foe." You may become insulted, but thats not my intent. Again--I don't care/personality is not my target. Personality==another wrapping. Lots of wrapping, or, given the tears maybe lots of layers to any onion? Wordplay. Boorish some will think. I love it. We think with words. Its the stuff of ideas. How facile are you?

I've never called anyone a troll. Never thought anyone was. Takes too much energy to "pretend" to be something you are not. Works for about 5 posts, 3 days, or one 6 pack. For me anyway. There are people I skip reading. Mostly religious nuts. The political nuts however vote and hurt other people thereby. something to contest.

Causation. did I think this entry was made because of me? No. did I think it could apply to me anyway? Yes. So many things thought of as causation are actually post hoc, ergo proctor hoc. Thats a Darwinian code deep in our DNA. Its a good part of what makes up our humanity and we should always be on guard against.

I've read 2-3 entries by Joe Quinn. Excellent academic background having the attendant pro's and con's. A bit more self involved than I am. Not more educated than me, but more erudite. Hows that? My memory ain't worth **** and half of what I write is a substitute for what I can't quite remember. Been that way my whole life. Like carrying water with a bucket having a larger hole than most. I would like to have challenged Joe Quinn as the opportunity might have arisen and learned from being shown how wrong I was. Always a tonic.

Guns blazing a bit too much huh? I pulled my horns in. My natural and first gut response flits from being extremely hostile to totally unengaged antipathy. Every thing I post is covered in sugar.

So, in the end---what is a troll? Shouldn't think or worse even say that without a very specific definition in your mind===and then you should taunt the target with your definition rather than the label. Yeah---its more words and takes more time. Easier to be a troll yourself and call the other one out. The easiest, I fear most common reality? A troll is someone you disagree with and who won't stfu.

Fan==whats wrong with someone trolling? Oops==but first, how would you define a troll? Just read the list of descriptors to begin with? Each category sounds pretty interesting to me. Why would any of those descriptions upset anyone? Might not the gravamen of the troll be the repetitiveness of the contribution? So--any one note pony is objectionable for that reason. Eventually, while trolling all along, they become boring. No more snap. EDIT #4: Fan--sorry, you defined the term: "Trolling is done ONLY to disrupt a board, not to have a conversation." Nice em-PHA-sis there. When a post is disruptive, how do you judge the intent behind it? What do you look for? Reminds me of "disruptive technology." Its the biggest fastests newest thing and hated by the status quo. Disruptive. Disruptive of what? Did Jebus not upset the money lenders stalls in the marketplace? Did he do that only to be disruptive? Bible didn't tell us for hundreds of years later. How to judge/whether to judge. Why judge? Always a two way street, the power elite posting the signage.

-or- just the opposite. Its anyone's choice.

EDIT==hey, thats cool. The cyberguard turned my excrement into ****. I like that very much. Seems to me that any criticism of word choice now is clearly shown as one person's personal preferences? I thought scatology was generally allowed and only porn/sex references generally banned. Watson is right around the corner. Applied across the cyberworld. One day soon, as cyber surrogates we will all be more polite than our hair and smells and effluences would justify. The future is so bright, I gotta wear shades.

EDIT #2--you know, speaking of causation, Ron Paul, political nuts, and such it is interesting that existentialists can fairly be thought of as lacking common sense in that they fail to connect dots that the rest of us do. They have adopted their psychology/philosophy of the world to a degree they become dissociative. The back side of post hoc/coincidence/concomitantcy==all closely associated with actual causation. Trolling--still offering something to learn from.

EDIT #3--what is a self examined life but one of endless edits? "did I think this thread was posted because of me?--no. Apply to me?==yes." //// but I actually responded and had in mind that we all have more or less troll in ourselves and I admitted to same to see/encourage others to admit to the same. I really should give it more time to develop but my exuberance runneth over===besides in two days, I'll forget. No thoughtful person will criticize another without seeing some degree of it applying to themselves.===standard exceptions applicable.
Last edited by bobbo on 11-14-2011 05:00 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Diogenes » 11-14-2011 03:17 PM

Raggedyann wrote: People shouldn't be labeled as trolls because their posts don't total 5000, or their POV differs from the mindset of the majority of the posters, or because some posters can't come up with a decent counterargument.


Arguments and counter of course either subjective or objective and sometimes folks think either is okey dokey and decent if in agreement with their POV as you say.

I find the Troll and other identifying terms interesting as it is probably no different than if we were all to meet at a gathering in person - we would surely form opinions at first blush and going forward dependent upon words, actions, appearance, etc.
A man's character is his fate

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Post by HB3 » 11-14-2011 03:23 PM

Raggedyann wrote: People shouldn't be labeled as trolls because their posts don't total 5000, or their POV differs from the mindset of the majority of the posters, or because some posters can't come up with a decent counterargument.


Funny, I don't remember you coming to my defense back in the day...

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Post by voguy » 11-14-2011 05:51 PM

Fan wrote: Troll is an easy term to throw around, but in fact it is a very specific thing. If I see trolling I will intervene. Trolling is done ONLY to disrupt a board, not to have a conversation.


True, but trolling is also when someone takes part in conversations for the sole purpose of stirring it up, sort of like the drunk in the bar that fells the need to get in your face. I think saying it done only to disrupt is sort of finely focused.
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." - Thomas Jefferson

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Post by Fan » 11-14-2011 05:54 PM

voguy wrote: True, but trolling is also when someone takes part in conversations for the sole purpose of stirring it up, sort of like the drunk in the bar that fells the need to get in your face. I think saying it done only to disrupt is sort of finely focused.


I call this playing devil's advocate :) It can be quite good for stimulating conversation. I often engage in this simply for the fun of a debate or conversation.

Trolling really is a destructive action, taken to stop conversation or to flood or overwhelm a conversation. The goal is to disrupt people's enjoyment or usage of a site typically.

Sure, it can be a fine line, but malicious intent is necessary to be a troll in my opinion.

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Post by Raggedyann » 11-14-2011 05:57 PM

HB3 wrote: Funny, I don't remember you coming to my defense back in the day...

I wasn't defending anybody in my post above. I am pretty sure this troll thread was put here for my benefit.

Anyhow, welcome to the FF bobbo! You have provided me with much food for thought and that's what it's all about. :)

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Post by Fan » 11-14-2011 06:01 PM

Fan==whats wrong with someone trolling? Oops==but first, how would you define a troll? Just read the list of descriptors to begin with? Each category sounds pretty interesting to me. Why would any of those descriptions upset anyone? Might not the gravamen of the troll be the repetitiveness of the contribution? So--any one note pony is objectionable for that reason. Eventually, while trolling all along, they become boring. No more snap. EDIT #4: Fan--sorry, you defined the term: "Trolling is done ONLY to disrupt a board, not to have a conversation." Nice em-PHA-sis there. When a post is disruptive, how do you judge the intent behind it? What do you look for? Reminds me of "disruptive technology." Its the biggest fastests newest thing and hated by the status quo. Disruptive. Disruptive of what? Did Jebus not upset the money lenders stalls in the marketplace? Did he do that only to be disruptive? Bible didn't tell us for hundreds of years later. How to judge/whether to judge. Why judge? Always a two way street, the power elite posting the signage.
The judging is hard sometimes. However, I have experience with this sort of thing. A troll is not hard to spot once they invade. Why judge? I try not to unless pushed into it.

I want free speech. However, if someone is harming the board, then steps may be warranted. A personal warning will always be attempted before any further action is taken.

Anyways, we don't have trolls here. If someone wants to complain about a user or a situation, they know how to reach me or a moderator ([email protected] or private message).

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Post by bobbo » 11-14-2011 06:28 PM

Fan--good enough. And I'm even moderating myself further. The wrapping is mostly habit, the core message the same.

I think giving specific warnings with a stretch performance of suggesting how else the issue could have been addressed is always a good thing and with any failure a temporary banning for 1-2-3 weeks just to get the offenders attention. Maybe thats just me, maybe doable only if more time permits.

I attended an atheist forum once and they banned people continuously. Rewardingly, they had a forum for that where people could complain about their banning. About 30% of the time, the moderator took counsel and rescinded the banning. It was the best forum on the site. Haven't seen it anywhere but there.

COMMENT: probably a better place for this but I'm a noob: I like the "Currently Active Thread" notice on the head page for the entire website. But it seems "under reported" to me. Why not the last 10 posts or more if there is room? Its informative and quicker than trying to parse the main page.

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