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While it might have nothing to do completely with John's topic at hand. All this moon talk got me interested in watching For All Mankind, the story of man's challenge to land on the moon. Some extraordinary footage by some extraordinary men.

I thought this was a topic for how man moved the orbit of the moon and not the lovely lady reflection found on Bean's face visor.
did I spell that right?

Thanks for the info, Shirley. Bill Gates also invented the 8-track tape player, but I think the Learjet had a greater impact. I was not aware the late Carl Sagan coined the phrase. Well, there you go. He says, or said.

It really makes no difference who said it. It's a valid requirement. Especially if you expect people to belive you, although there will be those that belive simply because the want to, or they hold the claimant's credentials in such high regard they don't question the claimant's statement.

It may turn out that the greatest conspiracy of all was that there never were any conspiracies.

73,

Scientifically speaking in normal discourse it's impossible to prove anything, because as Karl Popper pointed out, there is an asymetric relationship between truth and experience....this is why proof requires falsification.....

Thus people believed the Ptolemaic theory of the solar system for hundreds of years, and thousands upon thousands of man hours of observation supported it....

Yet it only took one observation by Gallelio to negate, i.e. flasify...Ptolemy's theory...and prove it wrong..

so Sagan's statement extrodinairy claims require extrodinairy proof, is not an acurate represantation of what proof is....

Proof is just that, there is nothing extraordinary... or even ordinatry about it...the adjectives cloud the issue...

Science, itself is a method for finding proof and testing theory....you gather observations... test the results etc.. etc...

From the Stanford dictionary of philosophy....

The general picture of Popper's philosophy of science, then is this: Hume's philosophy demonstrates that there is a contradiction implicit in traditional empiricism, which holds both that all knowledge is derived from experience and that universal propositions (including scientific laws) are verifiable by reference to experience. The contradiction, which Hume himself saw clearly, derives from the attempt to show that, notwithstanding the open-ended nature of experience, scientific laws may be construed as empirical generalisations which are in some way finally confirmable by a ‘positive’ experience. Popper eliminates the contradiction by rejecting the first of these principles and removing the demand for empirical verification in favour of empirical falsification in the second. Scientific theories, for him, are not inductively inferred from experience, nor is scientific experimentation carried out with a view to verifying or finally establishing the truth of theories; rather, all knowledge is provisional, conjectural, hypothetical - we can never finally prove our scientific theories, we can merely (provisionally) confirm or (conclusively) refute them; hence at any given time we have to choose between the potentially infinite number of theories which will explain the set of phenomena under investigation. Faced with this choice, we can only eliminate those theories which are demonstrably false, and rationally choose between the remaining, unfalsified theories. Hence Popper's emphasis on the importance of the critical spirit to science - for him critical thinking is the very essence of rationality. For it is only by critical thought that we can eliminate false theories, and determine which of the remaining theories is the best available one, in the sense of possessing the highest level of explanatory force and predictive power. It is precisely this kind of critical thinking which is conspicuous by its absence in contemporary Marxism and in psychoanalysis.

Starman-Gary wrote: Thanks for the info, Shirley. Bill Gates also invented the 8-track tape player, but I think the Learjet had a greater impact. I was not aware the late Carl Sagan coined the phrase. Well, there you go. He says, or said.

It really makes no difference who said it. It's a valid requirement. Especially if you expect people to belive you, although there will be those that belive simply because the want to, or they hold the claimant's credentials in such high regard they don't question the claimant's statement.

It may turn out that the greatest conspiracy of all was that there never were any conspiracies.

73,

Starman, thanks you for your comments and welcome to this thread. I'm sure you meant Bill Lear, my Dad, invented the 8 track player not Bill Gates.

I remember my Dad, Sam Auld, Gary Shier and Robbie Robinson working on it. Dad got the idea from the Mad Man Muntz 4 track and figured out how to make it 8 tracks. I was only 20 then. I worked in PR and occasionally bucked rivits on Learjet airframe serial no. 1 (N801L) on graveyard. This is all in the original hangar on Harry Street at municipal airport in Wichita circa 1963.

One SR-71 was delivered to Russia in 1990 just before the start of Gulf War 1. The agreement with Gorby was we would train his crews and support the aircraft with maintenance and parts if he would refrain from supplying advisors, equipment, guns, ammo or intelligence to SH. They kept the one SR in a military hangar near Moscow, I had a friend who saw it in that hangar. For details of the operation please see: Defrauding America, (Dirty Secrets of the CIA and other Goverment Operations) by Rodney Stich LOCCN 93-074654 ISBN 0-932438-05-9. Thanks again for you input to the thread.

P.S. Just in case you haven't already figured it out: when you come to the Fantastic Forum you need to park your reservations, ego, vanity and everything you think you know at the door. Then grab your ass and hang on.

johnlear wrote: ...Although the moon is in rotational lock, and we only see one side of it, the back side we don't see, the left side, the right side, the top side, the bottom side and every other side of the moon gets the same amount of light.

Understood, but "dark" to us here on earth...

Does anyone remember seeing series of 1-hour documentaries on the Apollo flights? I remember seeing, during one of these shows, the camera quickly skimming the surface of the moon on the back side.

The film might have been taken by the circling ship while the men were on the moon, OR, it could have been taken by Clementine.

In any case, memory is fuzzy but I'm thinking that the film was taken during one of the Apollo flights because I saw it twice including re-runs and couldn't believe what I saw VERY clearly. Actually, I believed what I saw but was and still am flabbergasted that no one in NASA has ever addressed the spires. I'm absolutely sure that the astronauts have seen these spires, you'd have to have been blind not to.

snowbird

ps. The links are fantastic. Thanks!

Also, any maps that I've seen of the back side do not show these spires, either.

I'd call that a conspiracy...

snowbird

snowbird wrote: Understood, but "dark" to us here on earth...

Does anyone remember seeing series of 1-hour documentaries on the Apollo flights? I remember seeing, during one of these shows, the camera quickly skimming the surface of the moon on the back side.

The film might have been taken by the circling ship while the men were on the moon, OR, it could have been taken by Clementine.

In any case, memory is fuzzy but I'm thinking that the film was taken during one of the Apollo flights because I saw it twice including re-runs and couldn't believe what I saw VERY clearly. Actually, I believed what I saw but was and still am flabbergasted that no one in NASA has ever addressed the spires. I'm absolutely sure that the astronauts have seen these spires, you'd have to have been blind not to.

snowbird

ps. The links are fantastic. Thanks!

There is a photo on the web, I forget where, of the location on the moon where the 'spires' are. NASA did a real amateur job of trying to delete them from the photo. On page 45, Exploring Space With a Camera (NASA SP-168, 1968) there is a pretty good view of an enormous structure that has to be at least 40 miles long taken by Zond III, southeast of Mare Orientale, on the (ho, ho, ho) "Dark" side on the moon. I've played with the image for hours on end but as its a half tone there is not much you can do because of the small image size of the structure in the frame of the photo.

Here's a link that I've never seen before, mentioning spires, ufos, flashes on the moon and all from impeccable witnesses.

http://www.thewhyfiles.net/moonfiles.htm

I don't know if this is the lie you mean, John. This looks like a lie by omission...

Moon spires:

http://www.astrosurf.com/lunascan/4cusp.htm

snowbird

Joolz ~ I found the issue of Omni...only took about 5 minutes of looking through the index of each. July 1989.

It would take a bit longer to type all of it in plus you wouldn't see the images that go with it so I'm going to try to scan all the pages and save them as .jpg. I will then place them in the gallery and post little thumbs here that will link to each page. How's that for detective work;)

BTW...it's on the cover of the issue:
APOLLO
The Dark Side:
20 Years Later The Astronauts Speak Out

And it looks like there are quite a number of astronauts interviewed so this should be interesting. Haven't had a chance to read it yet so everyone here will see it before I read it as I'm going to scan it now.

I found a copy online for $4.

Sorry 'bout that, John. I apparently got a copy of Win XP that subliminaly flashes "Bill Gates is God" at random intervals/;)

Mad Man Muntz. Haven't heard that name in years. I remember well his cheesey TV sets. "Hot stringed" they were, I believe; i.e. no power xfmr, just depended on the tube filaments and resistors to drop the AC to useable levels. Five tubes and a CRT, The vidieo equivalent of the All American Five.

Why we would give the Russians an SR-71 is beyond me, unless all their spy satelittes are dead. I have to assume then we gave them the formulation for JP-7, as that is the only thing I know of that the P & W J-58s will run on at altitude. Many aspects of the 71 are still classified, but only because no one has seen fit to declassify them. Our aero tech has moved way beyond the 71. Maybe the Russians wanted to figure out how the Skunk Works could develope such an advanced aircraft with only sliderules. Maybe our sliderules were bigger than thier sliderules.

Given the digital and CGI technology available to anyone with the bucks, the provenance of any documents or photographs are a near impossibility. I believe little or nothing of what I read unless I have personal knowledge of the source and nothing I see of photographs.

However, my mind is NOT closed. I can accept virtually anything as a possibility; convincing me of its probability is quite another thing. For example, if one flips a coin there are two possibilities: it will land heads up, or it will land tails up. In the long run the odds are 50-50 whether it will be heads or tails. But there is a probability, an extremely remote probiability, that it will land and remain on edge. Finding that probability is the symbolic quest.

73,

I'm not sure now that this is the same issue and article that Joolz was referring to. We'll see...

Here they come...just a few minutes...