Dutch Police Powerless To Stop Outdoor Orgies

mudwoman · Post by **mudwoman** » 08-01-2005 03:39 PM

OMG!! Nakedness in a museum? The horror!

SETIsLady · Post by **SETIsLady** » 08-01-2005 03:45 PM

I'm Blind !!

Fred_Vobbe · Post by **Fred_Vobbe** » 08-01-2005 04:20 PM

Yipes! Lets take it to a dark corner of the museum so it won't offend anyone!

smadewell · Post by **smadewell** » 08-01-2005 11:55 PM

mudwoman wrote: OMG!! Nakedness in a museum? The horror!

Hmmm.... Michelangelo's model must have posing a very long time and in the winter by the looks of things.

smadewell · Post by **smadewell** » 08-02-2005 12:07 AM

Fred_Vobbe wrote: As I have said before, I wonder if perhaps the US is TOO prudish at times. I've lived in communities where they don't have sex standing up because it looks like dancing.

Sometimes I wonder if it's not that the Dutch are too open, but that we're too far the other way.

Well, look at all the pedophiles in the news. I think that's the main concern -- the kids! How does this impact the kids?

Yes, we've created a culture that literally worships youth and more or less hates aging and to a greater or lesser extent the elderly. That's part of the problem.

Personally, I think pedophiles do what they do because they're aware of their own "impurity" and children ... being symbols of "purity" ... serve as a touchstone for them. Also, they get to sadistically defile that which they aren't (i.e., "pure"). It's really kind of vampirish, because repeated abuse can turn the abused into abusers. Vampires.... That's another element of pop-culture - like the veneration of youthfulness - that we're attracted to.

Sure.... We're too prudish and their too liberal. Balance is everything, no?

Fred_Vobbe · Post by **Fred_Vobbe** » 08-02-2005 10:23 AM

smadewell wrote: Well, look at all the pedophiles in the news. I think that's the main concern -- the kids! How does this impact the kids?

How do the kids in other counties handle what they see on TV or in life? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that there is more openness of the subject in Europe, yet they not the problems we have in the states.

If a boob pops up on TV, (a breast, not a politician), it seems like we go ape-crap over it. Yet in Europe there is nudity on TV. And I don't see that European kids are worse off than US kids. In fact, judging by the news someone would have to say that our nation is filled with pedophiles and men trolling for kids.

Perhaps if those convicted of pedophilia were incarcerated for a long time, or had citizenship revoked, maybe that would solve the problem.

But I don't see act in a park being the problem as much as the idiots on the internet stalking kids, and the courts that release them 90 days later to start the practice again.

smadewell · Post by **smadewell** » 08-02-2005 01:46 PM

Fred_Vobbe wrote: How do the kids in other counties handle what they see on TV or in life? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that there is more openness of the subject in Europe, yet they not the problems we have in the states.

They also have a lower age of consent in Europe. Yeah.... We do tend to freak out more in this country about sex issues. No doubt about it.

Remember all those Euro-esque films of the 80's were the high school boys got to learn all about sex from older women -- teachers, tutors, the lady next door, etc...?

What happens when life imitates art? We freak! We get a couple of female teachers who give a little out-of-class sex ed to their male teen students and they get locked up!

Pfft! Like any red-blooded American teenage guy is going to say no to either of the teachers charged? Yeah right.... Okay! Double standard! We'd really freak if it were a dirty old man teacher pulling that with a female student, right? Or worse … a male teacher doing it with a male student -- be it consensual or not.

I don't know.... IMO, I say lower the age of consent to 14 years old. Ain't that what it is in Canada? Any adult over 18 who has sex with someone under 14 years of age ... fry 'em. Zero tolerance. Just nuke 'em and be done with it. That way we don't have to deal with seeing repeat offenders kidnapping, abusing and/or murdering our kids and teens.

Of course ... teen on teen sex is a whole other ball of wax. Sure seems to be more prolific than when I was in High School! Why? Who do we blame there? Sex education in the classroom? The pop-icons? Society? The Church?

I doubt we have more pedophiles here than Europe does. It's prolly about the same per capita. We just tend to air our dirty laundry more than they do and judging by past events ... they're also able to cover things up better, especially when "nobility" and their minions are involved.

When I was stationed in England ... every time there was some burglary or horrific murder or some perv was caught ... the media and police would be quick to say, "We're not as bad as America is." Well ... DUH! Their whole freaking country is only about the size of Minnesota! Do the math!

Anywho.... I don't have any solutions. Maybe it's a systemic problem.

Joolz · Post by **Joolz** » 08-02-2005 03:26 PM

smadewell wrote: Pfft! Like any red-blooded American teenage guy is going to say no to either of the teachers charged? Yeah right.... Okay! Double standard! We'd really freak if it were a dirty old man teacher pulling that with a female student, right? Or worse … a male teacher doing it with a male student -- be it consensual or not.

We had a discussion about this in -- of all things! -- my Classical Mythology class last semester. I don't remember for sure which of the Greek plays we were reading that prompted this discussion, but it was probably one of Sophocles' plays. I remember the professor saying just about the same thing you did here, and the discussion then revolved around the double standards our culture holds regarding gender and age in sexual relationships.

As for the WHY of the prevalent 'perversions' in American sexuality, I think it has more to do with our sexually repressive culture than anything else. And the fact that we send mixed messages via advertising, movies, and TV. On the one hand, we revel in sexuality, but on the other hand, we tell people (especially teenagers) not to express it themselves.

I remember an old friend of mine who was mother to five children telling me how she felt that the 'forbidden' always becomes that which we feel we must somehow experience. For instance, she said her mother had forbidden candy bars when she was a kid. As a result of that, she would save her lunch money to buy candy bars with and then hide them in her room to devour at night when everyone else was asleep. She became an overweight kid despite her mother's intentions. So, she decided that she was not going to make anything absolutely forbidden to her children. Even though she didn't want her kids eating candy, either, she told them it was OK, within reason, and allowed them to eat a certain amount of candy per week. None of her kids had a problem with that or with their weight.

My friend was wise. Sex and food are both pleasures of the body and our perceptions are relational. If we make a big deal out of sex (as I said, look at how we advertise!), then make it taboo, of course, it becomes the forbidden fruit that must be tasted at any cost. I think these conflicting messages are the root of much that is sexually unhealthy in America. As a society, we are really messed up sexually, IMO. And the root is repression.

I could probably write a whole essay on this, but I have to get ready to go somewhere, so I'll just leave it here...

smadewell · Post by **smadewell** » 08-03-2005 02:56 AM

Joolz wrote: On the one hand, we revel in sexuality, but on the other hand, we tell people (especially teenagers) not to express it themselves.

When have teens - especially since 1980 - listened to what their absentee working parents said? Two income family with a latch-key kid who has the house to him/herslef from 2 or 3 to 5 or 6 and then gets all of 15 mins of their parents' "quality time" before they collect their parents' guilt money or guilty gift for the night before they disappear to play video games or music or with themselves or their friends.... Yeah! They're gonna listen to Mom and Dad's "No drugs and no sex" speach. NOT! And that's IF the parents even bother to say that much! It ain't June and Ward Cleaver's world anymore....

Joolz wrote: As a society, we are really messed up sexually, IMO. And the root is repression.

I could probably write a whole essay on this, but I have to get ready to go somewhere, so I'll just leave it here...

I disagree.... All the preaching in the world is falling on deaf ears. Yes, the preaching goes on, but ... honestly! Who listens besides a few politicians seeking votes and regular Church goers? The media ain't listening! They promote "let it all hang out".... I just think you're giving the Church and the politicians who pander to them way too much credit. Save where pedophiles are concerned ... the gates are wide open IMO. I see no real repression going on from anyone who really matters -- not that said repression stops anyone from doing whatever they want in this day-and-age.

Nevertheless, ... I'd love to read one your essay-esque posts on the topic! Always like reading what Joolz has to say!

Fred_Vobbe · Post by **Fred_Vobbe** » 08-03-2005 07:55 AM

smadewell wrote: I disagree.... All the preaching in the world is falling on deaf ears.

Preaching usually falls on deaf ears. People are much more influenced by good examples.

OTOH, this could explain why so much society is willing to cheat, lie, and break laws. If those in power do it .... then why not?

Joolz · Post by **Joolz** » 08-03-2005 12:52 PM

Methinks you must've misunderstood my comments, smadewell.

I never said anything about children listening or not listening to their (absentee) parents or about latchkey kids. That's a whole 'nother can o' worms...

And I'm not preaching. I don't do that...

But I'm glad you like to read my posts.

I do definitely think that, as a society, we are probably the most sexually repressive culture in the Western world. We (general sense "we" as a culture, a society) are sexually repressive and death-denying -- neither is healthy. And we do send mixed messages. We are simultaneously obsessed with and repressive/denying of sex (and death). This dichotomy creates a lot of problems and makes for some really screwed-up ideas in the minds and hearts of a lot of folks. Just MHO.