Vatican corrects Pope: Atheists are still going to hell

[Riddick]

After Pope Francis told the world even atheists can go to heaven, the Vatican issued a correction: Atheists are still going to hell.
...
The current theological confusion began after the leader of the world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics made comments during the homily of his morning Mass on Wednesday, May 22, indicating that atheists would enjoy the fruits of eternal salvation if they were good people.

Full story:
http://www.examiner.com/article/vatican ... ng-to-hell

[Raggedyann]

After he said he that last week I thought I could stop worrying. Geez, now I'll have to go back to worrying again.

[kbot]

Interesting conundrum since, as Catholics (for those of us who are Catholics) we are bound to believe what the pope says, based on the Biblical charge Christ laid on the Apostles, generally, and St Peter specifically. Catholics believe in the doctrine of Apostolic succession - that The Catholic Church is the only church that can claim direct lineage through the popes back to Peter, who in turn received his authority from Christ. The Apostles received from Christ their instructions "What you loosen here on Earth is loosened in Heaven, and what you bind here on Earth is bound in Heaven....". So, Catholics (some anyway) take this seriously. That being said, there are a number of "catholic" churches - Roman, Orthodox, Antiochian, Armenian, Coptic, the Uniate churches, etc..... The Roman Church is not the "only" Catholic Church, but the Roman Pope hold primacy within The Church and the other catholic churches are in communion with the Roman Church.

All THAT being said, Pope Francis may have unwittingly set-up what will be more than an interesting academic debate, since he has already said that he plans to do some major housekeeping inside The Vatican.

Is this the proverbial shot across the bow? Is Pope Francis now changing what has traditionally been centuries of Catholc doctrine that, unless one accepts Christ that he cannot possibly "be saved"?

Will be interesting............

[Riddick]

Is The Pope Atheist?
Bill Maher thinks he is.

[Fan]

Pretty much every Christian I know is actually an atheist, almost none of them believe there is some singular "God" up there dictating their lives or meting out punishment, etc... I am pretty sure the pope feels the same way, I mean you have to be really really... into whatever religious text you enjoy to take it literally or to have a firm belief in things you can never see or know.

Not saying it is wrong to believe whatever you believe, but it is increasingly rare to find someone who literally believes there is an omnipotent being somewhere who cares about what we do.

[Riddick]

Not saying it is wrong to believe whatever you believe, but it is increasingly rare to find someone who literally believes there is an omnipotent being somewhere who cares about what we do.

You'll find more than a few here in Southeast Wisconsin. There's still a number of hardcore Lutherans and Protestants in the Upper Midwest. Granted, most are not very young folks, but the old timers take it real seriously. My last surviving uncle passed away late last month and I was a pallbearer at his in-church funeral, the first one I'd attended in ages. It was like I'd gone back in time, a big to-do with a food-laden fellowship after the service.

OTOH my brother, who was also a pallbearer, is the only one out of four siblings that hasn't strayed from his Lutheran upbringing, though even so he's not big on ALL the traditions -

At the funeral he told me unlike our uncle he doesn't want a funeral OR to be buried. Instead, he wants to be creamated and have his ashes scattered over the river that abutted the farm he lived on in his early childhood.

If folks want food, they're welcome to go to Mickey D's after.

[Fan]

You'll find more than a few here in Southeast Wisconsin. There's still a number of hardcore Lutherans and Protestants in the Upper Midwest. Granted, most are not very young folks, but the old timers take it real seriously. My last surviving uncle passed away late last month and I was a pallbearer at his in-church funeral, the first one I'd attended in ages. It was like I'd gone back in time, a big to-do with a food-laden fellowship after the service.

OTOH my brother, who was also a pallbearer, is the only one out of four siblings that hasn't strayed from his Lutheran upbringing, though even so he's not big on ALL the traditions -

At the funeral he told me unlike our uncle he doesn't want a funeral OR to be buried. Instead, he wants to be creamated and have his ashes scattered over the river that abutted the farm he lived on in his early childhood.

If folks want food, they're welcome to go to Mickey D's after.

Right, but even the most religious traditional ceremonies, if you personally asked everyone privately if they believed in the omnipotent god who punishes people for not believing, I bet a large majority would say no. Religion itself is a ceremony to many if not most people. They like the stories, the morals, the history, the trappings, but they don't completely buy the invisible bearded god who watches you all the time. This makes them atheists, ones who their own church tells them will go to hell. What kind of crazy doublethink do you have to have to be a member of a church which tells most of its members that even though they come on Sunday and try to be good people, they are still going to hell because they are not good enough at suspension of disbelief?

[Riddick]

Well, the crowd at my uncle's funeral skewed on the elderly side, and as a group the old timers are harecore. I'm willing to bet in his particular case at least, the true believers in attendance would've eked out a majority -

That said, in general so much as there's fewer by the day, as the oldsters die off it'll be all the tougher to find a majority of thoroughly indoctrinated folks in a church, during regular Sunday services.

[Fan]

funny old wolf http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/com ... encounter/

[kbot]

Interesting discussion. A recent example - at my parish (Roman Catholic) we celebrated a number of holydays with certain events. So, we had Easter and Pentecost, and an argument can (and has) been made about Easter and the pagan connections. Believe me , I heard just about all of them.

My wife and I took part in some of the prayer "events" that were scheduled during these times up through this past weekend.

So, for example, Catholics celebrate Divine Mercy Sunday, which is relatively new (started in the 1930s in Poland and has spread worldwide) - and we participated in that as we have for the past few years now.

And we also participated in Benediction and saying the rosary.

Again, this is what we do as practicing "orthodox" (as opposed to Orthhodox) Catholics. But, as you've noted, the particpation just isn't there. Many Catholics don't believe as they once did. I myself can recall years when the church (and, I attended Mass in a fairly large building when I was much younger) was standing-room only. Therewere Masses almost every hour on Sundays (we didn't have Saturday-evening Masses back then), and each Mass was packed with people. The Mass was said in Latin. Novenas, Benediction, High-Mass, Low-Mass were common.

A lot of that was swept away by Vatican II, and what you see now is the result of "the new Catholicism". The rituals are either wholey gone, or remnants of what used to be. The focus of how a Mass was said has been changed from the old-style where the priest faced the alter (and addressing God) to now where the focus is on the congregation, and his back facing God.

It's sad. We've found a church in New Bedford - about 25 miles from our home, where they still say The Mass in Latin and practice according to pre-Vatican II rules. This style of parish is gaining in popularity around the country as people have become disenchanted with the Vatican-II Novo Ordo style Mass and ecumenism.

I had read that the new order of the Mass was actually authored by a number of non-Catholic Protestants and that in form, it actually mirrors the Protestant services to a marked degree. If that is the case, then how can the Roman Catholic Church call itself "Catholic" anymore.

I think that, for a large majority of Catholics, that they don't believe as people did a generation or two, or three back. There is still a small minority - mostly older, in virtually every parish that still do.

But, they are a small minority.......

I've found myself reading a number of pre-Vatican II sources and the differences between then and now are striking. Also, what we (as older Catholics) take for granted are things that, for a number of reasons, aren't even being taught anymore. And this is true of The Church, schools (can't even say a prayer in a public school anymore, much less even mention God), or taught at home. Many homes are either single parents, or both parents work, and kids are left to play video games or watch tv...... OK, enough ranting (sorry....)

[Fan]

I went to church with my family, we come from a strong Roman Catholic tradition, but no one in my family ever believed in God. We went because it was a community thing, it was social, the morals taught were often worthwhile.

No matter the language the mass is spoken in, no matter the tradition, I still maintain that even among the older generation (I had many talks with my grandparents about this), a minority actually believed the full story. You don't have to believe it to get something out of the church and church life. In my opinion being spiritual and liking church and church services does not imply being a theist.

[Riddick]

Would you believe from what I've heard from elderly relatives, I've got a different perspective of things in this neck of the Midwest woods? Either the old timers around here are bald faced liars, or they truly do believe everything they were taught.

'Course, for the most part the old-time Lutheran population we have has a heavy Germanic background, which in no small way may account for their stubborn and adamant adherence to what the religious authorities beat into them (in some cases, literally).

[Fan]

Would you believe from what I've heard from elderly relatives, I've got a different perspective of things in this neck of the Midwest woods? Either the old timers around here are bald faced liars, or they truly do believe everything they were taught.

'Course, for the most part the old-time Lutheran population we have has a heavy Germanic background, which in no small way may account for their stubborn and adamant adherence to what the religious authorities beat into them (in some cases, literally).

I don't disbelieve it necessarily, my point is just that a significant number of people both attend church and are atheists, so the Church is telling a large number of its supporters and adherents that they are in fact going to hell no matter how they run their lives or how often they come to church or how much they donate to help the poor etc...

[Riddick]

I don't disbelieve it necessarily, my point is just that a significant number of people both attend church and are atheists, so the Church is telling a large number of its supporters and adherents that they are in fact going to hell no matter how they run their lives or how often they come to church or how much they donate to help the poor etc...

I dunno what it's like now but back in the day the Lutheran church didn't make it easy for believers, either.

My mother had a hard time with it. She'd been brought up in a church and school environment where the preachers and teachers would say just about anything a human being did was a sin. Even as they taught the faithful would be saved, they never let anyone forget they were basically a bad person. Doesn't do much for a person's self-esteem, and there were times in her life where she wondered if she'd committed some unforgivable sin that she wasn't even aware of.

I went through 8 years of parochial grade school myself, but haven't been a member of a church since I was 21. Frankly, I don't give a lot of thought to religion these days. While I wouldn't say I'm an atheist, probably more borderline agnostic, I can say I no longer buy into the whole guy in the sky story I was taught.

[Fan]

Yeah the cognitive dissonance the church uses is a control method. You cannot simultaneously believe all the things they tell you, it creates a sort of split personality. A veneer of being a good person, but with terrible self-loathing.