Vatican corrects Pope: Atheists are still going to hell

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Riddick
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Post by Riddick » 06-04-2013 03:39 PM

On the cognitive dissonance, I'm reminded of a scene from All in the Family where Mike and Archie were arguing about religion and at one point Mike asked if there is a God and he's so loving, why is there so much pain and suffering in the world?

Archie couldn't come up with an answer so he pulled over Edith to respond, and after a moment she said "Maybe it's so that when get to Heaven, we'll notice the difference?"

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Post by Fan » 06-04-2013 04:03 PM

Riddick wrote: On the cognitive dissonance, I'm reminded of a scene from All in the Family where Mike and Archie were arguing about religion and at one point Mike asked if there is a God and he's so loving, why is there so much pain and suffering in the world?

Archie couldn't come up with an answer so he pulled over Edith to respond, and after a moment she said "Maybe it's so that when get to Heaven, we'll notice the difference?"


Good old edith.

I had not heard, but Jean Stapleton (edith) just passed 5 days ago. I hope she notices a difference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Stapleton
The heartbreaking necessity of lying about reality and the heartbreaking impossibility of lying about it.

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle

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Post by Raggedyann » 06-04-2013 04:03 PM

:D :D :D

R.I.P Edith!

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Post by Riddick » 06-04-2013 11:48 PM

From
Pope Francis one-liners made for Twitter age
by Elizabeth Tenety at washingtonpost.com -
  • In homilies and speeches in the months since assuming the Seat of Saint Peter, Pope Francis has demonstrated his simple style applies not only to his dress and living accommodations –but to the words he uses to share the faith. A few recent examples:

    Eternity “will not be boring.”

    “Long faces cannot proclaim Jesus.”

    “War is madness. It is the suicide of humanity.”

    “We are not part-time Christians.”

    “The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!”

    “Think about a single mother who goes to church, in the parish and to the secretary she says: ‘I want my child baptized’. And then this Christian, this Christian says: ‘No, you cannot because you’re not married!’. But look, this girl who had the courage to carry her pregnancy and not to return her son to the sender, what is it? A closed door! This is not zeal! It is far from the Lord!”

    “If the investments in the banks fall slightly… [it is] a tragedy… what can be done? But if people die of hunger, if they have nothing to eat, if they have poor health, it does not matter! This is our crisis today!”

    In contrast to the richly theological style of Pope Benedict, Pope Francis seems a pope made for the age of tweets. His “simple, direct language,” (as described by L’Osservatore Romano, the Vatican’s newspaper) is making the sometimes-mystical leader of the world’s 1.2 billion Catholics veritably meme-worthy. And that is raising eyebrows across the religious spectrum.

    So what happens when religious complexity meets witty one-liners online?

    Consider Pope Francis’ comments about atheists on May 22. Much of the information about Francis’ statements comes from the Vatican’s news Web site, news.va, which typically synthesizes the pope’s homilies with translated (the pope gives homilies in Italian) select quotes rather than posting the speeches in their entirety. So when the Vatican released a sermon summary that said that Jesus had redeemed “even the atheists,” many took note. Some pointed out the problem of using snippets of a speech to prove a broader point. The Rev. John Zuhlsdorf, who runs a popular blog from a conservative Catholic viewpoint, noted that “we never get what the pope actually said in its entirety,” and clarified Catholic teaching on the possibility of heaven for non-Christians. The site Reddit, which hosts a robust atheist forum, blew up with the news. Atheist bloggers, who–um, don’t believe in heaven–were nonetheless grateful for the implied message that nonbelievers who do good will be rewarded. The Vatican later clarified Francis’ statements, reminding the public of its teaching that yes, Jesus died for all but you do need to believe in order to get into heaven.

    The papal quips continue.

    While the online marketplace of ideas gives the Catholic Church a new stage on which to preach, the question of how to teach the faith to the masses without watering down the message is as old as religion itself. With his made-for-meme style, Pope Francis just seems to have entered a new digital frontier.

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Post by Raggedyann » 06-05-2013 12:35 AM

[/B]His “simple, direct language,” (as described by L’Osservatore Romano, the Vatican’s newspaper) is making the sometimes-mystical leader of the world’s 1.2 billion Catholics veritably meme-worthy. And that is raising eyebrows across the religious spectrum.

And herein lies the problem! The boys in the backroom will soon have him under control, just like they do with the guy in the Whitehouse, or the guy on Parliament Hill, or guys anywhere else where the mighty hands of power conglomerate.

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Post by kbot » 06-05-2013 09:10 AM

Fan wrote: I went to church with my family, we come from a strong Roman Catholic tradition, but no one in my family ever believed in God. We went because it was a community thing, it was social, the morals taught were often worthwhile.

No matter the language the mass is spoken in, no matter the tradition, I still maintain that even among the older generation (I had many talks with my grandparents about this), a minority actually believed the full story. You don't have to believe it to get something out of the church and church life. In my opinion being spiritual and liking church and church services does not imply being a theist.


And I agree with you - it is a minority of people who believe this. I just happen to be one of them. Call me what you will, but that's me......

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Post by kbot » 06-05-2013 09:18 AM

Fan wrote: I don't disbelieve it necessarily, my point is just that a significant number of people both attend church and are atheists, so the Church is telling a large number of its supporters and adherents that they are in fact going to hell no matter how they run their lives or how often they come to church or how much they donate to help the poor etc...


A current "scandal" of sorts has been occuring in Catholic pasrishes - and Fr Malachi Martin touched on this, concerning thepractice of receiving communion. Catholics believe (or at least, it is doctrine) that not only is the Holy Eucharist representative of the body of Christ, but that it actually is physically transformed by the Rite into the body of Christ.

So, ore-Vatican II - Holy Communion was always received on the tongue, delivered by a priest, attended by an alter boy (or deacon) using a patten placed under the chin. The recipient kneeled for this.

Now, post-Vatican II, the host is received n the hand and the manner in which this is done by the recipient - in many cases, leaves a lot to be desired in terms of respect. The Jews have a saying posted in many of their tempoles and synagogues "Know before whom you stand". That thought has left many Christian (both Catholic and non-Catholic) churches today.

So, the "scandal" is that people who have Satanism are their religion, attend Catholic Masses and take the host to use in their ceremonies. We've had a number of break-ins at local Catholic churches with alters smashed, reliquries smashed, tabernacles ripped opena dn the communion hosst taken. Never seems to happen to non-Catholic churches, which raises an interesting point in and old itself....

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Post by kbot » 06-05-2013 09:20 AM

Raggedyann wrote: :D :D :D

R.I.P Edith!


Amen. Some people are class acts all by themselves. Jean Stapleton was certainly one of those people.

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Post by Riddick » 06-05-2013 01:08 PM

Being in a church doesn't make you a believer any more than being in a garage makes you a car... and IMHO, as it is being a member of one doesn't always mean you'll be "feeling the love," at least not from the folks in charge -

Over 3 decades have passed since I've been involved, so I can't say what life is like in the Missouri Synod Lutheran community these days, but even in my youth an authoritarian fundamentalist flavor ran through it. (From stories told by my mother, as well as my siblings, before my time the instructional environment was anything but heavenly.)

Schooling was not unlike boot camp. Most teachers were like drill sergeants without the swearing, though they still could make you feel like you weren't worth two cents. And the ministers and church elders weren't any better, with their hoops to jump through to be members in "good standing"...

If you weren't at services or communion often enough and participating in other activities, your faith was questioned and either you shaped up, or got shipped out (excommunicated). Having enough of all the harsh judgmentalism, in the early '80s my parents and I petitioned for and were granted a 'release' from that particular church -

But even as much as their community's continued onward, we chose not to re-up at ANY base camp for Martin Luther's "Christian Soldier" army.
Last edited by Riddick on 06-05-2013 01:24 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Fan » 06-05-2013 01:20 PM

kbot wrote: And I agree with you - it is a minority of people who believe this. I just happen to be one of them. Call me what you will, but that's me......


Good for you, I would never call you anything for that. I believe many things I cannot provide direct proof of.
The heartbreaking necessity of lying about reality and the heartbreaking impossibility of lying about it.

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle

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Post by kbot » 06-05-2013 05:35 PM

Fan wrote: Good for you, I would never call you anything for that. I believe many things I cannot provide direct proof of.


Which is why it's called "faith".

I think that our society struggles with religion so much because we are such a tech-driven society. We need, even demand "proof". Well, religion and religious beliefs do nothing to provide proofs that will satisfy people. And, this isn't just for Catholicism/ Christianity, but for any religion.

I've spent the better part of the past nearly forty years engaging in mostly informal comparative religious exercises, trying to learn what I can about as many religions as I can. And, there is nothing in any religion that will pass the muster that a modern-day society places on religions in that some tangible proof is a prerequisite of acceptance. Whether we're talking Catholic doctrine, the postmortem prayers detailed in The Tibetan Book of the Dead, the One consciousness of Buddhism or the resurrection ideas first detailed by early Jewish writers, the fact is modern society is so far removed from early cultures that many people have lost that sense of being in tune with nature and spirituality that our ancestors took for granted. Religion cannot and never will be able to provide measurable proofs of the existence of a divine being, even thought some scientists such as Dr Kulber-Ross certainly have provided some groundbreaking work in the (at least) possibility of an afterlife.

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Post by Riddick » 06-05-2013 06:34 PM

kbot wrote: modern society is so far removed from early cultures that many people have lost that sense of being in tune with nature and spirituality that our ancestors took for granted. Religion cannot and never will be able to provide measurable proofs of the existence of a divine being
Is "divine being" necessarly restricted to an entity that created all there is, both here on Earth AND beyond?

For that matter, how much do we REALLY know about the nature of existence? As it is, eternity is a long time - Even longer if there was no actual kick-off point, which renders the question of who or what started it all moot.

IMO despite scientific advancements, modern man is far from having all the answers. My guess is there's more to everything than what humanity can ever know or "prove".

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Oh yeah, Popey Man?

Post by LisaA » 06-05-2013 09:38 PM

I'm not an atheist but I'm not blinded by the Light.

I wasn't born a sinner and I don't need salvation.

I believe if a Believer tells a damned lie, and an atheist tells the Truth, then the laws of nature will serve and the liar will get weaker, the Truth teller will grow stronger. Let's all speak as truly as we know how.

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Post by kbot » 06-06-2013 10:44 AM

Riddick wrote: Is "divine being" necessarly restricted to an entity that created all there is, both here on Earth AND beyond?

For that matter, how much do we REALLY know about the nature of existence? As it is, eternity is a long time - Even longer if there was no actual kick-off point, which renders the question of who or what started it all moot.

IMO despite scientific advancements, modern man is far from having all the answers. My guess is there's more to everything than what humanity can ever know or "prove".


Being human not only implies having limitations, but having limitations is a requirement of being human. Presuming to be in a position of knowing everything about everything is the height (or depth) of arrogance.

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Re: Oh yeah, Popey Man?

Post by kbot » 06-06-2013 10:46 AM

LisaA wrote: I'm not an atheist but I'm not blinded by the Light.

I wasn't born a sinner and I don't need salvation.

I believe if a Believer tells a damned lie, and an atheist tells the Truth, then the laws of nature will serve and the liar will get weaker, the Truth teller will grow stronger. Let's all speak as truly as we know how.


I agree with your premise. Many self-professed "religious" individuals preach to others but don't act according to what they tell others that they must do. I agree with you. I'm probably my own worst enemy. But, I'm working on it.

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