KERRY IS Looking into Voter Fraud with Lawyers Lots of Them!

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Post by tiffany » 11-10-2004 08:48 PM

racehorse wrote: Excellent post, shecoda.


So the points she made bout me including beating the the dead horse, (pardon the pun) you think is excellent.

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Post by racehorse » 11-10-2004 09:04 PM

Tiffany, I was referring to the central point of the post that President Bush won the election, Senator Kerry and the Democrats know it and that is why they conceded, and nothing is going to change the results of the election.

I was not referring to any specific comments concerning you. I enjoy your posts; even when as often we disagree, you do it in a fair and considerate way.
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Post by Corvid » 11-10-2004 09:08 PM

...uh... an indictment?

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Post by Iris » 11-10-2004 09:20 PM

Linda, Kerry acted in a way that was in the best interest of al American voters. Remember Gore's partisan effort in 2000, and remember the outcome. Instead of repeating that, there is now a grassroots effort by everyday citizens to have a fair vote count, and recount where necessary. That is as it should be. Kerry did the best thing. Remember also, that a concession is not legally binding. The will of The People must be followed.

Bev Harris (BBV) was on AirAmerica this morning. She said that they are starting on Ohio, because that is where there are the most discrepancies. Bev (who knows more than any of us) said it's entirely possible that Kerry might be our next president. She is requesting donations for the recount efforts, starting with Ohio (which is liable to cost about $200,000), and the efforts will begin with the most key precincts, and progressing to other states.

Bev's lawyers formed a new 527 that allows citizens to donate to the effort. Remember, this is an effort to clean up our flawed voting process. There is a new web site for where to donate; if anyone has the URL, please post it here. It's something like "helpamericarecountthevote" -- but that's not it. (I was half asleep when I heard it, sorry.) DU has probably posted it or will soon.

We KNOW there were anomolies in this election. Thousands of reports have poured in. Some of these anomolies may just be machine glitches. Some of them may be hacking, and that could even be done by some teenager locked in his bedroom. That is all T.B.D. Some of them may be human error or deviousness.

The thing we do know is that overwhelmingly, the voting anomolies favored Bush. The odds of that happening accidentally are extremely high.

There are a number of lawsuits already active in a number of states, some brought by individuals, and some brought by organizations. Notably, Ohio's Blackwell has several against him. Already.

However, the most important point of all of this -- far more important than partisan politics -- is that America needs to be assured of a fair vote count in all elections. Shecoda, Racehorse, and other Bush supporters here should be just as concerned about this as we are.

Why? If a machine can be hacked by Republicans, it can be hacked by Democrats as well, and can affect *all* of our votes -- for people and for initiatives. I hope that everyone can understand this: Who won this election is not nearly as important as is assuring that America is, and remains a government Of, By, and For The People inasmuch as we ALL can collectively influence that.
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Post by tiffany » 11-10-2004 09:30 PM

racehorse wrote: I was not referring to any specific comments concerning you. I enjoy your posts; even when as often we disagree, you do it in a fair and considerate way.


na na na nah nah nah,,,,,,,,,,,heheh just kidding:p Seems like I told you the same thing.........OMGOSH we agree on something:D

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Post by racehorse » 11-10-2004 09:32 PM

tiffany wrote: na na na nah nah nah,,,,,,,,,,,heheh just kidding:p Seems like I told you the same thing.........OMGOSH we agree on something:D


:D
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Post by tiffany » 11-10-2004 09:35 PM

Iris wrote: . I hope that everyone can understand this: Who won this election is not nearly as important as is assuring that America is, and remains a government Of, By, and For The People inasmuch as we ALL can collectively influence that.


(well a Kerry win would be better for our Country and our Constitution in the next four years but....) I certainly agree with you Iris on the last sentence especially. Of the People By the People and FOR the people ALL of them!

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Post by shecoda » 11-10-2004 09:42 PM

Tiffany I respect what you are saying about the irregularities in voting and I personally think they shoud be found and corrected for the next election. I don't think there will be enough irregularities to change the outcome of this one. Or maybe it's a done deal and nothing can change it.

If you go back and read my post I never said anything about you beating a dead horse. I was only remarking on what the Dem party is doing in response to this election. Nowhere did I reference what you personally are doing in conjunction with this election.

The simple fact is there is nothing to be done regarding the outcome of this election at this time by the DNC. All they will do is alienate voters for the next elections coming up in 2006 and 2008 if they are seen as keeping this country divided. It's all politics, causing divisivness in the country only looks like churlishness to many in this country, the DNC as an institution knows it, doesn't want the reputation this would give them and looking forward to the next election is exactly what they should be doing.

As for what you are currently doing in regards to this election, perhaps you are doing exactly what you are supposed to be doing. The DNC as an institution cannot possibly hope to gain the same outcome that an outcry among voters themselves can achieve.

I am distressed that I even left you with the feeling that I meant you personally. If I wrote it clumsily please forgive me as my boss came by and I had to go to work so I posted what I had already written. Perhaps I didn't proofread my post well enough.

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Post by tiffany » 11-10-2004 09:59 PM

It's okay Shecoda. You started the post addressing me and I just thought you were addressing me and others on the left in the forum here. Sorry I misread you.......
;)

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Post by shecoda » 11-10-2004 10:28 PM

I really appreciate you Tiffany. You are always polite even though you get your point across firmly, I never feel insulted by you even if we don't agree on something.

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Post by Guest » 11-10-2004 11:17 PM

The problem I see with the Diebold machine thing is not hackers ... but rather the fact that the makers are pro bush and laws are in effect that prevent anyone from inspecting the machines ... yet the machines leave no paper trail.

Very realistically as the polls came in on election day the Diebold makers could easily increase the Rep votes remotely and it would be impossible for anyone to verify .... that is fact.

It is quite obvious the machines were tampered with in some states after all pre-vote exit polls are usually 99% accurate, but the Diebold makers surely affected the actual results.


Dieboldgate here we go .... although Bush will probably have us into thermonuclear war long before any investigations take place.

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Re: .

Post by racehorse » 11-10-2004 11:47 PM

Zamboniman wrote:

It is quite obvious the machines were tampered with in some states after all pre-vote exit polls are usually 99% accurate, but the Diebold makers surely affected the actual results.

Exit polls are not as reliable of an indicator of the vote as the pre-election scientific polls and a warning is always issued that they should not be relied upon. Rasmussen and Mason-Dixon's Pre-Election Scientific Polls were particularly accurate in calling the results of this election.

__________

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6408569/site/newsweek/

Full of Holes’
Commentators depended on the exit polls to predict the winner, but the polls got it wrong (again). Can they be trusted in future elections?


WEB EXCLUSIVE

By Brad Stone
Newsweek

Updated: 6:12 p.m. ET Nov. 4, 2004

Nov. 4 - Pundits and politicians, bloggers and businessmen spent much of Election Day confident in the knowledge that George W. Bush's tenure in the White House was over. They were reading and trusting the unofficial exit polls that showed a slim margin of victory for Sen. John Kerry. The official results, of course, told a different story.

The exit polls, produced by an organization called the National Election Pool (NEP), suggested all kinds of ultimately flawed results. For most of the day, they put Kerry ahead nationwide by a one- or two-point margin and with slim leads in Ohio, Florida and New Mexico--decisive swing states that he ended up losing. It also showed the senator competitive in states like Virginia, where he actually got whomped, and revealed a late-breaking, nonexistent surge of undecideds for Ralph Nader. The faulty figures appeared throughout Election Day on Web sites such as Slate.com and on the sites of many bloggers, who hinted at a decisive Kerry victory. The data was then amplified by millions of readers who eagerly relayed those numbers to colleagues, friends and family.

By midday on Tuesday, there was a spreading certainty among the chattering classes that voters had booted the president from office. Pollsters were privately calling the race for Kerry and declining market numbers revealed Wall Street's skittishness about the apparent change in administration. As the actual counting of the votes began, Republicans were panicky, Democrats energized. Early on election night on CNN, an obviously elated Ted Kennedy spoke with unusual confidence about a Kerry administration.

He should have recalled some recent history. This is the third black eye in a row for the unified exit-polling effort by six major news organizations: ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, Fox and the Associated Press. Their previous consortium, the Voters News Service (VNS), humiliated itself and its media partners in 2000 when its numbers first suggested that Al Gore had won Florida, then George Bush, then that the race that was too close to call. In the 2002 midterm elections, the VNS failed to produce any useable results at all. But the news organizations need those polls to guide their live coverage and to help project the winners. So they pulled the plug on VNS and instead started a new organization, the NEP, retaining two veteran pollsters to conduct the operations.

The NEP was transparent about its methods. Before the election, it announced it would send its part-time workers to 1,480 precincts around the country chosen to reflect the nation's demographics. It also planned to collect results from another 3,000 precincts after the polls closed, and make thousands of calls before the election to voters in 13 states, to try to capture a representation of the early vote and the absentee vote.

Before the election, the NEP pleaded with its media partners to keep the exit polls secret during the election. "They are only estimates and should not be used in the reporting of any poll results on air, in print or on the web," went one NEP missive. This turned out to be naive. Keeping exit polls secret in today's wired world is like trying to stop rain from hitting the ground.

But there were larger problems than the leaks. Four years ago, it was the analysts who goofed, drawing faulty conclusions in an election that was too close to call. This time around, it seems that the data itself was bad. "We looked across every state and it looked like a Kerry sweep [of the swing states]," said Michael Maslansky of Luntz Research. His boss, GOP pollster Frank Luntz, sent out an e-mail to clients at 4 p.m. ET on Election Day extrapolating a huge Kerry win from the exit polls. "These guys were working on this for four years to get the methodology down. They are smart guys. You expect them to get it right," says Maslansky.

They didn't. The most obvious mistake seems to have been an overly large sampling of women voters, particularly early in the day. In the exit polling NEP released at 1 p.m. ET on the day of the election, of the 5,000 voters who had been interviewed, 59 percent were women. Three hours later, of the 8,349 voters who were interviewed, 58 percent were women. In both of these statistical snapshots, Kerry was winning the election, according to NEP. The organization knew its numbers looked sketchy. It reportedly held a midday conference call with its media partners to alert them to the problem. Still, University of Virginia political science professor Larry Sabato says the NEP "ought to give its money back to the news networks."

Sabato also says this: "I used to believe it was possible to structure exit polls in a way to make them accurate. I am now starting to wonder if it is even possible." In other words, exit polling--like polling itself--may simply be an unreliable science in today's world. Perhaps we are now too busy or impatient to talk to a pollster over the phone, or to stop to answer questions after waiting in long lines to vote. Early voting and absentee voting further complicates the challenge of accurate predictions. "Exit polls are full of holes," says Joan Konner of the Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism, who co-wrote an internal report for CNN about the 2000 debacle. "Nobody should ever take these things seriously."


But don't feel too sorry for the media organizations that paid for the bad data, or for the left-wingers whose hopes were lifted by the exit polls and then crushed by the real results. The real tragedy is that journalists and historians must now analyze the election without a clear window into what the voters actually thought. And that is truly scary. Exit polling has traditionally played another important function, helping to reveal the real intentions of the voters. As University of Michigan professor Michael Traugott says, they provide "a public
protection against the false claim of a mandate."

In his acceptance speech, the president laid claim to such a mandate. "America has spoken, and I'm humbled by the trust and confidence of my fellow Americans," he said. The exit polls, were they bankable, might tell another story: of an America apprehensive about changing leaders in the middle of the war against terror but still deeply suspicious about the direction the country is heading in. But all we can truly know about 2004 is the bottom line: 51 percent of voters checked a box for Bush, 48 percent checked one for Kerry.

© 2004 Newsweek, Inc.
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Post by Corvid » 11-11-2004 02:46 AM

"There are lies, damnable lies....and statistics."

Mark Twain

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Post by Devastated » 11-11-2004 08:03 AM

Anybody who feels good about having been forced to watch all that political crap (depends whether you live in a swing state) and watch the media "choose" the opposition candidate, and then get up and march and stand in line at the polls all day, and then watch the "results", needs their head examined.
It is time for major electoral reform in the United States, and not the kind that says "oh, anything as long as MY candidate wins."

We are a nation of sheeple.

I am not bitching about Kerry losing. I am complaining about how the entire "electoral process made me feel. Pretty worthless.
You don't have to believe everything that you think...

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Post by Ninerism » 11-11-2004 11:52 AM

Personally, I think that if there is gross misconduct discovered, malfeasance of duty, and/or voter-machine fraud that was skewed one way or the other -- though being mindful that it was Bush who has won, ostensibly! -- that there should be a Congressional call for a recount in those States and precincts, and if it is discovered that Kerry did win the day, then that would be probably one of the greatest signs that we may have a chance to recover our collective sanity, that is, if Kerry does prevail and does get out us out of the war-making mood and focuses more on the woes of our domestic fronts, such as poverty, need for health care, need for affordable national medical insurance, etc etc etc.

Moreover, it would be a clear sign that half the nation is not BONKERS with strange fundamentalist doctrines, which are tearing apart our national fabric at this time. NO,there was not a RELIGIOUS MANDATE, not when nearly one-half OR MORE of the population rejects religious fundamentalism.

I was never raised to endorse radical fundamentalism, as one Lutheran; nor was I raised with the idea that trying to proselytize Muslims by love bombs of SHOCK AND AWE was the way to go to Christ, either.

I was not raised to despise what the Pilgrims represented, either.

One neo-Pilgrim.
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