Liberals vs. Conservatives

Archive - Caveat Emptor!

Moderator: Super Moderators

User avatar
CindyLouWho
Pirate
Posts: 3533
Joined: 01-02-2003 03:00 AM

Liberals vs. Conservatives

Post by CindyLouWho » 10-24-2004 10:41 AM

In the week or so before the 2004 election and in the spirit of bi-partisan unity (for as long as it will last, wink), I open this thread along with a fully stocked BAR so that we can talk about our differences & similarities as they pertain to which way we lean down the political aisle. We may even learn something about eachother, God forbid! I know I could sure use some enlightening on how the conservative heart and brain work together, and I'm sure you wanna know if I know all of the words to Kumbaya.

Mark, Set, Go.

User avatar
CindyLouWho
Pirate
Posts: 3533
Joined: 01-02-2003 03:00 AM

Post by CindyLouWho » 10-24-2004 10:47 AM

this post from another thread:
by me:
Ben,

While there are fundamental differences in our thinking, your labels don't fit everyone, but hey let me paste a couple of fairly simple labels on your own forehead anyway and see how they go over (let me know if the fit!).

* Generally speaking conservatives spend more time focusing INWARD and liberals tend to spend more time focusing OUTWARD. Does that fit or is it too tight?? Try this one on ... Conservatives are narrow-minded with tunnel-vision, Liberals are broad-minded with wider-vision. Whatcha think, not your color?

Liberals care about other humans, not out of guilt but out of the feeling of connectiveness with every other living being on the planet. Folks called liberal-types "HIPPIES" in the 60's. Today we're also called progressives, broadminded, reformists and apparently "guilt-ridden".


* There are obvious exceptions to these rules both on the left and the right.

p.s. Also Ben, before you say it .. I realize and freely admit that I am not an unconditionally loving liberal like many others on this board. I am fairly selfish myself in certain aspects of my life and am aware often that I am quite the bitch ... no secret there.

to which Ben replied:
See thats what's so funny. I believe the same thing only switch it around.

Also I think liberals like to high jack words that sounds good. They all the sudden a few years ago started calling themselves " progressives". Well heck who dosen't wanna be?

And broadminded. :rolleyes: Now you can't be broadminded unless you beleive the same things we do. Where is the sense in that?

I care about the same things you do. We just have different ways of how to go about seeing them get done.

User avatar
CindyLouWho
Pirate
Posts: 3533
Joined: 01-02-2003 03:00 AM

Post by CindyLouWho » 10-24-2004 10:59 AM

To clarify ... What I meant when I used the words INWARD and OUTWARD focus, is this: It is my impression that conservatives are more concerned for themselves and their "people" (more on that later) and liberals, who are also concerned for themselves & their "people", also take an interest in the well being of others who aren't their "people" at all ...

To clarify ... What I mean by using the word "people" is fairly broad. Our people include our families, our businesses, our races, our genders, our culturse, our gender preferences .. you get the drift. "Our people" are whom we mostly identify with.

To clarify ... (oh geez, just move on, Cindy ... )

User avatar
BenSlain
Pirate
Posts: 3419
Joined: 09-14-2000 02:00 AM

Post by BenSlain » 10-24-2004 01:13 PM

huh? Have your people call my people....... I'm at work posting from my vehical. Cool Huh?:cool: But time is short and I have to do these quick. That is the reason my post have look a bit shakey as of late. (spelling ect) I gotta rip them off quick. I'm having more trouble at home with my cable modem so I have been having a hard time keeping up with yall. I'll try to get it back up tonight.
Put in a prison cell, but one time he could-a been The champion of the world.

alaskandevil
Pirate
Posts: 1761
Joined: 11-26-2000 03:00 AM

Post by alaskandevil » 10-25-2004 11:11 PM

wouldnt posting say something about one subject and define how each side percieves it.

say taxes...yes/no...good/bad....too much/ not enough...

I would save the dooosey ones(abortion,war,etc) for later on.

good idea tho cindy..

I will toss my 2 cents in..
" Edited for Political Correctness "

User avatar
Iris
Pirate
Posts: 13539
Joined: 01-01-2003 03:00 AM

Post by Iris » 10-26-2004 03:14 AM

Cindy, I'm not really sure exactly what you're after here?
We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. B. Franklin

Gotrox
Pirate
Posts: 678
Joined: 05-18-2003 08:18 PM

Post by Gotrox » 10-26-2004 03:59 PM

Said I wasn't going to post in this thread till after---due to the constant hammering of opposing views---but what the hey, this seems safe ( for now)
What are the differences???? When you get down to it, not really many at all, but for those running for office, it makes sense to magnify those differences as much as possible.
What may be discussion points between friends become "national issues".
Kissing babies and a chicken in every pot probably goes back to when uggggg wanted to be leader of the cave. But remember how many promises actually come to pass after the election.....The president can no more make policy or law by himself, than a sailor turn an aircraft carrier by himself.
So why do I identify with the Libertarian party? Because in a perfect world, it seems to take the best of both rep and dem ideals and merge them to a cohesive unit. Are there problems with a Libertarian system??? Of course. We don't live in a perfect world. Are there problems with a Democratic or Representitive government system?? Of course.
So, Into The Quagmire I Dive:


Taxes: 20% flat tax on all sales, 20% import export tax no exemptions for anyone, personal or corporate.

International policy: All Nations have the right to exist and trade with anyone. No foreign aid shall be provided to any country, less they become dependant on the United States for their existance, though temporary humanitarian aid may be provided at the will of the people.

Military: The military is to be used to protect the country, on its boarders only. Every state shall have it;s own militia consisting of every person of age in that state in an emergency, under direction of the governor of that state.

Economy: At no time shall the United states be dependant on foreign supplies of any commodity in excess of 20% of the needs of the United States.
In no case shall the United states subsidise, or penalise producers of commodities---market forces shall determine prices.

Social services: The United states shall provide subsistence necessities to those in need, housing, food, basic utilities, health care, but shall require those who are able to work for it.


Education: The United States shall provide a 10 year basic education for all citizens . ( at 16 they know it all anyway, don't they?) Consisting of the teaching of reading, writing, arithmatic, history and government. Theory shall always be identified as such, and not taught as law.

Law and Penal system: All laws shall be equally enforced, and uniform, and all laws shall carry equal protections and penalties for all citizens---Judge and jury shall ony be used to determine guilt or innocence. All detainies shall be required to work to pay for their incarceration.



Thats all for now, as I have other things to do---If you wish to add, modify, or rant-----feel free.

User avatar
CindyLouWho
Pirate
Posts: 3533
Joined: 01-02-2003 03:00 AM

Post by CindyLouWho » 10-26-2004 04:43 PM

Does anyone have any arguement with the following synonyms from http://www.thesaurus.com ?? If you call yourself conservative, does this describe you?? Why or why not?


Entry: CONSERVATIVE:
Function: adjective
Definition: moderate
Synonyms: bourgeois, cautious, constant, controlled, conventional, die-hard, fearful, firm, fogyish, fuddy-duddy, guarded, hard hat, hidebound, holding to, illiberal, inflexible, middle-of-the-road, not extreme, obstinate, old guard, old-line, orthodox, quiet, red-neck, right, right-wing, sober, stable, steady, timid, traditional, traditionalistic, unchangeable, unchanging, uncreative, undaring, unimaginative, unprogressive, white bread


Entry: LIBERAL:
Function: adjective
Definition: progressive
Synonyms: advanced, avant-garde, big, broad, broad-minded, catholic, detached, disinterested, dispassionate, enlightened, flexible, free, general, high-minded, humanistic, humanitarian, impartial, indulgent, inexact, intelligent, interested, latitudinarian, left, lenient, libertarian, loose, magnanimous, not close, not literal, not strict, permissive, pink, radical, rational, reasonable, receiving, receptive, reformist, tolerant, unbiased, unbigoted, unconventional, understanding, unorthodox, unprejudiced.

User avatar
BenSlain
Pirate
Posts: 3419
Joined: 09-14-2000 02:00 AM

Post by BenSlain » 10-26-2004 06:06 PM

Gotrox wrote: So, Into The Quagmire I Dive:


Taxes: 20% flat tax on all sales, 20% import export tax no exemptions for anyone, personal or corporate.



Where do I sign up.
Put in a prison cell, but one time he could-a been The champion of the world.

User avatar
Rombaldi
Call Me "Hussein"
Posts: 9916
Joined: 09-05-2003 01:03 AM

Post by Rombaldi » 10-26-2004 06:11 PM

Cindy..

I like the dictionary myself :)

lib·er·al Pronunciation Key (lbr-l, lbrl)

adj.

Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.

Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.


==============


con·ser·va·tive Pronunciation Key (kn-sûrv-tv)

adj.

Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.

Traditional or restrained in style
Moderate; cautious
Republican - re·pub·li·can (r-pbl-kn) - political party, which will control part of Congress 2011-2012, undermining the strength of the country - on purpose, in public, without apology or shame - simply for a campaign advantage in 2012.

User avatar
spaceprophet
Pirate
Posts: 4052
Joined: 11-20-2002 03:00 AM

Post by spaceprophet » 10-27-2004 12:55 AM

Gotrox wrote: Taxes: 20% flat tax on all sales, 20% import export tax no exemptions for anyone, personal or corporate.

I agree with most everything you stated except the flat tax on all sales and the education bit.

Does the 20% on all sales include food sales? I don't mean stuff like McDonald's cheeseburgers. I mean essential basics like bread, milk, meat, veggies, ect, from the grocery store. If this were true then it would be devastating to low income Americans trying to claw their way out of poverty. They would essentially starve. Have you been chatting with Dick Cheney? Just kiddin. :D

I almost had to drop out of college 9 years ago twice because of financial costs such as tuition and housing as a result of conservative cut backs in education spending. I virtually lived on Ramon noodles and peanut butter and had to be hospitalized for malnutrition once back in college. Of course I had no expensive privatized health insurance either and I had to declare bankruptcy which jeopardized my financial aid status... but that's another issue. My point is if I had to pay a 20% sales tax while working part time at outdated minimum wage while going to school today, I would have surely had to drop out. Then guess what? I'm then back making outdated minimum wage and starving again permanently and scorned at being poor by the conservative upper crust.

Flat taxes or a federal sales tax only do this: raise taxes on the poor and the rich then pay little in taxes. Pure and simple.

I give you a pass though Gotrox. You did offer this for the less fortunate among us.
Social services: The United states shall provide subsistence necessities to those in need, housing, food, basic utilities, health care, but shall require those who are able to work for it.
Education: The United States shall provide a 10 year basic education for all citizens .

You've gotta offer at the bare minimum at least 12 years of public education in a modern society. We're living in an increasingly technological age and the days of dropping out of high school and still being able to live comfortably are history. Many experts are finding that people will be finding themselves working low wage jobs with a college education in the near future and it's already being seen today. The gap between the rich and the poor are ever widening and wages are plummeting. Why do you think American fat cat corporate leaders are sending so many jobs overseas? Because they can pay college grads over there a couple of bucks an hour.
Judge and jury shall ony be used to determine guilt or innocence. All detainies shall be required to work to pay for their incarceration.

Then who does the sentencing? The prosecutor?!! Good God. You'll have people on death row for stealing a candy bar.

Let's see, if "all detainies shall be required to work to pay for their incarceration" then at a $1.00 a day, give or take 50 cents depending on any given correctional facility's pay rate for inmates, that'll take about... life in prison.

You're gonna need a prison in every county in the country for those proposals. Looks like you'll have to raise taxes. Raising taxes on the poor just won't cover it. And raising taxes on the rich won't sit too well with Libertarians and neocons.

For what it's worth, I agree with your ideas on international policy, the military, the economy, and social services however.
It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man. - Jack Handey

Gotrox
Pirate
Posts: 678
Joined: 05-18-2003 08:18 PM

Post by Gotrox » 10-27-2004 11:19 AM

see??? we can agree do disagree...
For the education bit-----10 year basic education provided by the state, the last 2 years of high school are a wash---but I'm sure the motivated will continue education---I see something like a 2 year prep school, paid for by the parents, or maybe a merit system. I left school @ 16 and joined the job corps-----worked well for me, ( hmmmm---brain storm----how about the last 2 years of school in a national job corps. type schooling) and I'm making double what some of my educated friends with a 4 year degree are making, partially because I don't have a $60,000.00 student loan hanging over my head.

As for laws------there will be no traditional sentancing, as all laws apply equally to all citizens, the wealthy will no longer be able to "buy down" a 10 year sentance to 90 days community service. If you are found guilty, everyone serves the same time. Codified law is what I am suggesting---of course, the rich will still be able to afford the expensive lawyers----not sure how to adress that issue.---- I didn't say detainees would have to stay incarcerated untill they paid off-----just that while incarcerated they have to work.

As for taxes, I can understand a starving student, but could you afford a 20% sales tax if you weren't paying a 30% income tax?
But ,(attempting to be a politician here) I would give up the 20% tax on food if you could suggest a viable replacement for those funds.

bluejello4
Pirate
Posts: 467
Joined: 04-10-2004 12:21 AM

Post by bluejello4 » 10-27-2004 12:01 PM

For my personal situation the 20% tax would be horrible since i'm not paying anything close to that in taxes. What money I have month to month would stretch even less. Obviously I don't like that idea ;)

Seems like it would be unfair to families, though. Sure if you're alone paying 30% taxes already then that goes away and you pay 20% sales tax, you'll have more money.

But what if you're supporting a family of 3 or 4. Kids that obviously don't work yet. You'd still have to buy the same amount of food, far more than you could afford paying 20% on everything compared to what money the 30% normal taxes would give you.

User avatar
seattlegal
Pirate
Posts: 3043
Joined: 03-23-2004 03:44 AM

Post by seattlegal » 10-27-2004 12:20 PM

pop·u·list
n.
1. A supporter of the rights and power of the people.
2. Populist A supporter of the Populist Party.

adj.
1. Of or relating to populism or its advocates: a populist aversion to business monopolies.
2. Populist Of or relating to the Populist Party.

lib·er·tar·i·an
n.
1. One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state.
2. One who believes in free will.

libertarian

\Lib`er*ta"ri*an\ (-t[=a]"r[i^]*an), a. [See Liberty.] Pertaining to liberty, or to the doctrine of free will, as opposed to the doctrine of necessity.
Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.
-- Yoda

bluejello4
Pirate
Posts: 467
Joined: 04-10-2004 12:21 AM

Post by bluejello4 » 10-27-2004 12:40 PM

One of the things I like about the Libertarian party is their stance on drugs. I completely agree with them.

Post Reply

Return to “Politics and Government Pre-2007”