Judge Orders U.S. to Find Bush Records
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Judge Orders U.S. to Find Bush Records
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... rd_records
Judge Orders U.S. to Find Bush Records
Thu Sep 16, 6:23 PM ET
By MATT KELLEY, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON - A federal judge has ordered the Pentagon (news - web sites) to find and make public by next week any unreleased files about President Bush (news - web sites)'s Vietnam-era Air National Guard service to resolve a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit filed by The Associated Press.
U.S. District Judge Harold Baer Jr. handed down the order late Wednesday in New York. The AP lawsuit already has led to the disclosure of previously unreleased flight logs from Bush's days piloting F-102A fighters and other jets.
Pentagon officials told Baer they plan to have their search complete by Monday. Baer ordered the Pentagon to hand over the records to the AP by Sept. 24 and provide a written statement by Sept. 29 detailing the search for more records.
"We're hopeful the Department of Defense (news - web sites) will provide a full accounting of the steps it has taken, as the judge ordered, so the public can have some assurance that there are no documents being withheld," said AP lawyer David Schulz.
White House officials have said Bush ordered the Pentagon earlier this year to conduct a thorough search for the president's records, and officials allowed reporters to review everything that was gathered back in February.
Through a series of requests under the federal open records law and a subsequent suit, the AP uncovered the flight logs, which were not part of the records the White House released earlier this year.
Both Bush's and John Kerry (news - web sites)'s service records in Vietnam have become a major issue in the presidential race. New records that have surfaced in recent weeks have raised more questions.
Bush's critics say Bush got preferential treatment as the son of a congressman and U.N. ambassador. Critics also question why Bush skipped a required medical examination in 1972 and failed to show up for drills during a six-month period that year.
Bush has repeatedly said he fulfilled all of his Air National Guard obligations.
The future president joined the Texas Air National Guard in 1968, when he graduated from Yale. He spent more than a year on active duty learning how to fly and then mostly flew in the one-seat F-102A fighters until April 1972.
The pilot logs show a shift to flights in two-seat trainer jets in March 1972, shortly before Bush quit flying. Former Air National Guard officials say that could have been because F-102A jets were not available for Bush to fly or because of other reasons, such as concerns about Bush's flight performance.
Bush skipped his required yearly medical exam in 1972 in the months after he stopped flying in April. Bush has said he moved to Alabama to work on the unsuccessful Senate campaign of a family friend.
Bush never showed up for Guard service between late April and mid-October 1972. He won approval to train with an Alabama Air National Guard unit during September, October and November 1972, but more than a dozen members of the unit at that time say they never saw him there.
The only direct record of Bush appearing at the Alabama unit's base is a January 1973 dental exam performed at that base. Bush's Texas commanders wrote in May 1973 they never saw him between May 1972 and April 1973, a time when his pay records show he trained on 14 days.
Although military regulations allowed commanders to order two years of active duty for guardsmen who missed more than three straight months of drills, that never happened to Bush. Commanders had leeway at the time to allow guardsmen to make up for missed drills.
Judge Orders U.S. to Find Bush Records
Thu Sep 16, 6:23 PM ET
By MATT KELLEY, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON - A federal judge has ordered the Pentagon (news - web sites) to find and make public by next week any unreleased files about President Bush (news - web sites)'s Vietnam-era Air National Guard service to resolve a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit filed by The Associated Press.
U.S. District Judge Harold Baer Jr. handed down the order late Wednesday in New York. The AP lawsuit already has led to the disclosure of previously unreleased flight logs from Bush's days piloting F-102A fighters and other jets.
Pentagon officials told Baer they plan to have their search complete by Monday. Baer ordered the Pentagon to hand over the records to the AP by Sept. 24 and provide a written statement by Sept. 29 detailing the search for more records.
"We're hopeful the Department of Defense (news - web sites) will provide a full accounting of the steps it has taken, as the judge ordered, so the public can have some assurance that there are no documents being withheld," said AP lawyer David Schulz.
White House officials have said Bush ordered the Pentagon earlier this year to conduct a thorough search for the president's records, and officials allowed reporters to review everything that was gathered back in February.
Through a series of requests under the federal open records law and a subsequent suit, the AP uncovered the flight logs, which were not part of the records the White House released earlier this year.
Both Bush's and John Kerry (news - web sites)'s service records in Vietnam have become a major issue in the presidential race. New records that have surfaced in recent weeks have raised more questions.
Bush's critics say Bush got preferential treatment as the son of a congressman and U.N. ambassador. Critics also question why Bush skipped a required medical examination in 1972 and failed to show up for drills during a six-month period that year.
Bush has repeatedly said he fulfilled all of his Air National Guard obligations.
The future president joined the Texas Air National Guard in 1968, when he graduated from Yale. He spent more than a year on active duty learning how to fly and then mostly flew in the one-seat F-102A fighters until April 1972.
The pilot logs show a shift to flights in two-seat trainer jets in March 1972, shortly before Bush quit flying. Former Air National Guard officials say that could have been because F-102A jets were not available for Bush to fly or because of other reasons, such as concerns about Bush's flight performance.
Bush skipped his required yearly medical exam in 1972 in the months after he stopped flying in April. Bush has said he moved to Alabama to work on the unsuccessful Senate campaign of a family friend.
Bush never showed up for Guard service between late April and mid-October 1972. He won approval to train with an Alabama Air National Guard unit during September, October and November 1972, but more than a dozen members of the unit at that time say they never saw him there.
The only direct record of Bush appearing at the Alabama unit's base is a January 1973 dental exam performed at that base. Bush's Texas commanders wrote in May 1973 they never saw him between May 1972 and April 1973, a time when his pay records show he trained on 14 days.
Although military regulations allowed commanders to order two years of active duty for guardsmen who missed more than three straight months of drills, that never happened to Bush. Commanders had leeway at the time to allow guardsmen to make up for missed drills.
Republican - re·pub·li·can (r-pbl-kn) - political party, which will control part of Congress 2011-2012, undermining the strength of the country - on purpose, in public, without apology or shame - simply for a campaign advantage in 2012.
You folks should really start to focus on 2004 not 1972. Your guy is losing. But since Dem's panties are in a bunch over this, here (for the fifth time, three elections):
http://www.hillnews.com/york/090904.aspx
Bush’s National Guard years
Before you fall for Dems’ spin, here are the facts
What do you really know about George W. Bush’s time in the Air National Guard?
That he didn’t show up for duty in Alabama? That he missed a physical? That his daddy got him in?
News coverage of the president’s years in the Guard has tended to focus on one brief portion of that time — to the exclusion of virtually everything else. So just for the record, here, in full, is what Bush did:
The future president joined the Guard in May 1968. Almost immediately, he began an extended period of training. Six weeks of basic training. Fifty-three weeks of flight training. Twenty-one weeks of fighter-interceptor training.
That was 80 weeks to begin with, and there were other training periods thrown in as well. It was full-time work. By the time it was over, Bush had served nearly two years.
Not two years of weekends. Two years.
After training, Bush kept flying, racking up hundreds of hours in F-102 jets. As he did, he accumulated points toward his National Guard service requirements. At the time, guardsmen were required to accumulate a minimum of 50 points to meet their yearly obligation.
According to records released earlier this year, Bush earned 253 points in his first year, May 1968 to May 1969 (since he joined in May 1968, his service thereafter was measured on a May-to-May basis).
Bush earned 340 points in 1969-1970. He earned 137 points in 1970-1971. And he earned 112 points in 1971-1972. The numbers indicate that in his first four years, Bush not only showed up, he showed up a lot. Did you know that?
That brings the story to May 1972 — the time that has been the focus of so many news reports — when Bush “deserted” (according to anti-Bush filmmaker Michael Moore) or went “AWOL” (according to Terry McAuliffe, chairman of the Democratic National Committee).
Bush asked for permission to go to Alabama to work on a Senate campaign. His superior officers said OK. Requests like that weren’t unusual, says retired Col. William Campenni, who flew with Bush in 1970 and 1971.
“In 1972, there was an enormous glut of pilots,” Campenni says. “The Vietnam War was winding down, and the Air Force was putting pilots in desk jobs. In ’72 or ’73, if you were a pilot, active or Guard, and you had an obligation and wanted to get out, no problem. In fact, you were helping them solve their problem.”
So Bush stopped flying. From May 1972 to May 1973, he earned just 56 points — not much, but enough to meet his requirement.
Then, in 1973, as Bush made plans to leave the Guard and go to Harvard Business School, he again started showing up frequently.
In June and July of 1973, he accumulated 56 points, enough to meet the minimum requirement for the 1973-1974 year.
Then, at his request, he was given permission to go. Bush received an honorable discharge after serving five years, four months and five days of his original six-year commitment. By that time, however, he had accumulated enough points in each year to cover six years of service.
During his service, Bush received high marks as a pilot.
A 1970 evaluation said Bush “clearly stands out as a top notch fighter interceptor pilot” and was “a natural leader whom his contemporaries look to for leadership.”
A 1971 evaluation called Bush “an exceptionally fine young officer and pilot” who “continually flies intercept missions with the unit to increase his proficiency even further.” And a 1972 evaluation called Bush “an exceptional fighter interceptor pilot and officer.”
Now, it is only natural that news reports questioning Bush’s service — in The Boston Globe and The New York Times, on CBS and in other outlets — would come out now. Democrats are spitting mad over attacks on John Kerry’s record by the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.
And, as it is with Kerry, it’s reasonable to look at a candidate’s entire record, including his military service — or lack of it. Voters are perfectly able to decide whether it’s important or not in November.
The Kerry camp blames Bush for the Swift boat veterans’ attack, but anyone who has spent much time talking to the Swifties gets the sense that they are doing it entirely for their own reasons.
And it should be noted in passing that Kerry has personally questioned Bush’s service, while Bush has not personally questioned Kerry’s.
In April — before the Swift boat veterans had said a word — Kerry said Bush “has yet to explain to America whether or not, and tell the truth, about whether he showed up for duty.” Earlier, Kerry said, “Just because you get an honorable discharge does not, in fact, answer that question.”
Now, after the Swift boat episode, the spotlight has returned to Bush.
That’s fine. We should know as much as we can.
And perhaps someday Kerry will release more of his military records as well.
Byron York is a White House correspondent for National Review.
http://www.hillnews.com/york/090904.aspx
Bush’s National Guard years
Before you fall for Dems’ spin, here are the facts
What do you really know about George W. Bush’s time in the Air National Guard?
That he didn’t show up for duty in Alabama? That he missed a physical? That his daddy got him in?
News coverage of the president’s years in the Guard has tended to focus on one brief portion of that time — to the exclusion of virtually everything else. So just for the record, here, in full, is what Bush did:
The future president joined the Guard in May 1968. Almost immediately, he began an extended period of training. Six weeks of basic training. Fifty-three weeks of flight training. Twenty-one weeks of fighter-interceptor training.
That was 80 weeks to begin with, and there were other training periods thrown in as well. It was full-time work. By the time it was over, Bush had served nearly two years.
Not two years of weekends. Two years.
After training, Bush kept flying, racking up hundreds of hours in F-102 jets. As he did, he accumulated points toward his National Guard service requirements. At the time, guardsmen were required to accumulate a minimum of 50 points to meet their yearly obligation.
According to records released earlier this year, Bush earned 253 points in his first year, May 1968 to May 1969 (since he joined in May 1968, his service thereafter was measured on a May-to-May basis).
Bush earned 340 points in 1969-1970. He earned 137 points in 1970-1971. And he earned 112 points in 1971-1972. The numbers indicate that in his first four years, Bush not only showed up, he showed up a lot. Did you know that?
That brings the story to May 1972 — the time that has been the focus of so many news reports — when Bush “deserted” (according to anti-Bush filmmaker Michael Moore) or went “AWOL” (according to Terry McAuliffe, chairman of the Democratic National Committee).
Bush asked for permission to go to Alabama to work on a Senate campaign. His superior officers said OK. Requests like that weren’t unusual, says retired Col. William Campenni, who flew with Bush in 1970 and 1971.
“In 1972, there was an enormous glut of pilots,” Campenni says. “The Vietnam War was winding down, and the Air Force was putting pilots in desk jobs. In ’72 or ’73, if you were a pilot, active or Guard, and you had an obligation and wanted to get out, no problem. In fact, you were helping them solve their problem.”
So Bush stopped flying. From May 1972 to May 1973, he earned just 56 points — not much, but enough to meet his requirement.
Then, in 1973, as Bush made plans to leave the Guard and go to Harvard Business School, he again started showing up frequently.
In June and July of 1973, he accumulated 56 points, enough to meet the minimum requirement for the 1973-1974 year.
Then, at his request, he was given permission to go. Bush received an honorable discharge after serving five years, four months and five days of his original six-year commitment. By that time, however, he had accumulated enough points in each year to cover six years of service.
During his service, Bush received high marks as a pilot.
A 1970 evaluation said Bush “clearly stands out as a top notch fighter interceptor pilot” and was “a natural leader whom his contemporaries look to for leadership.”
A 1971 evaluation called Bush “an exceptionally fine young officer and pilot” who “continually flies intercept missions with the unit to increase his proficiency even further.” And a 1972 evaluation called Bush “an exceptional fighter interceptor pilot and officer.”
Now, it is only natural that news reports questioning Bush’s service — in The Boston Globe and The New York Times, on CBS and in other outlets — would come out now. Democrats are spitting mad over attacks on John Kerry’s record by the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.
And, as it is with Kerry, it’s reasonable to look at a candidate’s entire record, including his military service — or lack of it. Voters are perfectly able to decide whether it’s important or not in November.
The Kerry camp blames Bush for the Swift boat veterans’ attack, but anyone who has spent much time talking to the Swifties gets the sense that they are doing it entirely for their own reasons.
And it should be noted in passing that Kerry has personally questioned Bush’s service, while Bush has not personally questioned Kerry’s.
In April — before the Swift boat veterans had said a word — Kerry said Bush “has yet to explain to America whether or not, and tell the truth, about whether he showed up for duty.” Earlier, Kerry said, “Just because you get an honorable discharge does not, in fact, answer that question.”
Now, after the Swift boat episode, the spotlight has returned to Bush.
That’s fine. We should know as much as we can.
And perhaps someday Kerry will release more of his military records as well.
Byron York is a White House correspondent for National Review.
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The facts remain: Bush was a panty-wasted pilot who could not pass his physicals, and avoided physicals, because his BLOOD WAS TAINTED WITH DRUGS, people are saying. Was Bush really home on the ranch, helping Bab's make apple pies? Or was he drug-wasted, and could not get out of bed, fearing that real physicals would show him to be a drug addict?
Bush did not serve in Vietnam, nor did Cheney, yet they attack a WAR HERO who served in Vietnam. SHAME ON THEM!
Kerry has the courage of his convictions to openly state his oppositions to the AMERICAN WAR in Vietnam.
No revisionists and war mongering will ever change the fact: We lost the AMERICAN WAR in Vietnam. We cannot re-write historical facts; but the real losers are those who refuse to accept that fact, we lost!
Ninerism
Bush did not serve in Vietnam, nor did Cheney, yet they attack a WAR HERO who served in Vietnam. SHAME ON THEM!
Kerry has the courage of his convictions to openly state his oppositions to the AMERICAN WAR in Vietnam.
No revisionists and war mongering will ever change the fact: We lost the AMERICAN WAR in Vietnam. We cannot re-write historical facts; but the real losers are those who refuse to accept that fact, we lost!
Ninerism
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Niner -- I haven't run into kneedeep's political posts in the forum for some time...though I know kneedeep from elsewhere.
For your information - he beat me in posting this article, though I had planned to use it for a thread-starter instead of some reply.
NOW as for the "missed" physicals - that too has been proven to be fake - false in other words. In the AF the physicals were done on a yearly basis - usually on or near your birthdate. Furthermore such physicals came FROM medical - not from superior officers. (Information regarding this from the USAF.)
For your information - he beat me in posting this article, though I had planned to use it for a thread-starter instead of some reply.
NOW as for the "missed" physicals - that too has been proven to be fake - false in other words. In the AF the physicals were done on a yearly basis - usually on or near your birthdate. Furthermore such physicals came FROM medical - not from superior officers. (Information regarding this from the USAF.)
Last edited by Cherry Kelly on 09-17-2004 12:33 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Cherry Kelly wrote: NOW as for the "missed" physicals - that too has been proven to be fake - false in other words. In the AF the physicals were done on a yearly basis - usually on or near your birthdate. Futhermore such physicals came FROM medical - not from superior officers.
Do you HONESTLY believe the lies you spew? Even the White House has admitted that Shrub didn't take the physical...
You really need to get your talking points in order...
Republican - re·pub·li·can (r-pbl-kn) - political party, which will control part of Congress 2011-2012, undermining the strength of the country - on purpose, in public, without apology or shame - simply for a campaign advantage in 2012.
Cherry Kelly wrote: Niner -- I haven't run into kneedeep's political posts in the forum for some time...though I know kneedeep from elsewhere.
Cherry... so how is it that you haven't run across "kneedeep's" posts in THIS forum for some time?
kneedeep
Pirate
Registered: Sep 2004
Location: Right Here Right Now
Posts: 30
So, WHO is "kneedeep"? If he's been here before and you know this, please enlighten the rest of us. And why does his account show him as NEWLY registered? What happened to his "old" account? Why did he have to re-register?
Please do enlighten us all. Thank you.
Anchors Aweigh!
Cherry Kelly wrote: kneedeep -- welcome back to the forum -- ttyl in chat. Thank you for posting this report.
I also take issue with this, Cherry. So, you "know" this "kneedeep" from elsewhere? From your "chat group"? Then, I would ask WHY he is here.
This forum's express purpose is to provide a forum for those who are fans of RADIO... of Coast to Coast, ART BELL, George Noory, Jeff Rense, et al.
I do not go out and recruit people from other forums and mediums such as chat rooms to come here and support me in political discussions. I would not dream of doing such a thing as it would be WRONG.
IF that is what is going on here, then it is disruptive to the purpose of this forum, IMO.
Anchors Aweigh!
Joolz wrote: IF that is what is going on here, then it is disruptive to the purpose of this forum, IMO.
Yah.. and isn't it INTERESTING that kneedeep started in on EVERY post I made.. and THREATED me first....
time for a trip to Home Depot?
Republican - re·pub·li·can (r-pbl-kn) - political party, which will control part of Congress 2011-2012, undermining the strength of the country - on purpose, in public, without apology or shame - simply for a campaign advantage in 2012.
Not just a regular troll but an invited troll. That is disrespectful to all the hard working, sincere people who post here.Joolz wrote: I also take issue with this, Cherry. So, you "know" this "kneedeep" from elsewhere? From your "chat group"? Then, I would ask WHY he is here.
This forum's express purpose is to provide a forum for those who are fans of RADIO... of Coast to Coast, ART BELL, George Noory, Jeff Rense, et al.
I do not go out and recruit people from other forums and mediums such as chat rooms to come here and support me in political discussions. I would not dream of doing such a thing as it would be WRONG.
IF that is what is going on here, then it is disruptive to the purpose of this forum, IMO.
Looks like this troll was invited to FF just to dog you Rom.Rombaldi wrote: Yah.. and isn't it INTERESTING that kneedeep started in on EVERY post I made.. and THREATED me first....
time for a trip to Home Depot?
I tell you friends, between the ghost writing, plagiarism, cut jobs from other threads, several alter egos posting under the same name, banned posters sneaking back, Ffreepers, garden variety trolls, and now this, what is going on around here? Is the Fantastic Forum under assault? This forum is a lot like C2C, as envisioned by Art, wide ranging, open to new possibilities and a pretty comfy place. Other than the occasional melt down, that many of us have, from time to time, I can't imagine anyone would set out to deliberately trash this place. Why?
mudwoman wrote: I can't imagine anyone would set out to deliberately trash this place. Why?
Well..
to be partisan....
FEAR
Freeps can't deal with the truth.. so they have to Kill the Messenger (ala 'memogate'.. the info therein has been coroberated.. the paper is in doubt... so kill the messenger).
Republican - re·pub·li·can (r-pbl-kn) - political party, which will control part of Congress 2011-2012, undermining the strength of the country - on purpose, in public, without apology or shame - simply for a campaign advantage in 2012.
The White House has released found stuff they couldn't find on Bush's service before cuz they didn't look far enough.
EDIT: Okay moved my post to here as it is redundant sorta. So here is what I said in my thread which I will be deleting:
More documents found on GWB's Service
I just heard on CNN, but not on their website yet, that:
The White House ordered the Defense Dept. to further look for information on GWB's service records.
And what do you know. They found some other stuff in which is a letter from GW's commanding officer, who supposedly wrote to Bush's Daddy and Daddy wrote back. The Commander supposedly wrote that GW was "gung ho" in his service. Daddy wrote back that he was impressed that the Commander would take time to write him. CNN again then emphasized that the reason why they came up with this stuff, even though they had stated there was none left, was because the White House asked to look a little bit deeper......... And I know I'll win a Billion dollars by tomorrow!
Rom: if you find the article please post it.
EDIT: Okay moved my post to here as it is redundant sorta. So here is what I said in my thread which I will be deleting:
More documents found on GWB's Service
I just heard on CNN, but not on their website yet, that:
The White House ordered the Defense Dept. to further look for information on GWB's service records.
And what do you know. They found some other stuff in which is a letter from GW's commanding officer, who supposedly wrote to Bush's Daddy and Daddy wrote back. The Commander supposedly wrote that GW was "gung ho" in his service. Daddy wrote back that he was impressed that the Commander would take time to write him. CNN again then emphasized that the reason why they came up with this stuff, even though they had stated there was none left, was because the White House asked to look a little bit deeper......... And I know I'll win a Billion dollars by tomorrow!
Rom: if you find the article please post it.
Last edited by tiffany on 09-17-2004 05:00 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Tiff, I found one reference to the term "gung-ho" from Feb., 2004 in USA Today. There are several other related articles there, as well.
Will look later to see if CNN has anything further.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicsel ... cord_x.htm
Will look later to see if CNN has anything further.
Roome [ ret. Maj. Dean A. Roome] told USA Today in 2002 that the last two years of Bush's Guard service were erratic, and that he was disappointed Bush gave up on flying. He seemed to have lost his enthusiasm for it.
"I think he digressed after awhile," he said. "In the first half, he was gung-ho. Where George failed was to fulfill his obligation as a pilot. It was an irrational time in his life."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicsel ... cord_x.htm
Last edited by mudwoman on 09-17-2004 05:27 PM, edited 1 time in total.