Intentionally tanking the economy

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kbot
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Post by kbot » 03-20-2014 06:13 AM

Raggedyann wrote: But what the hell, the taxpayer subsidizes minimum wage earners so corporations don't have to pay a living wage. Makes perfect sense and contributes to a healthy economic environment. (snark).


There's a name for that - corporations and government "working together"........ :rolleyes:
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Post by Cherry Kelly » 03-22-2014 10:06 AM

Living wage? Just what IS a living wage? Doesn't it vary by location?

Living wage - enough to pay rent (or mortgage); pay utilities; buy food and fix it at home; car (gas mainly) or bus fare plus if car - tags; needed clothing; eye or dental (most are not included in insurances); and if you have kids -school stuff - clothing for them as they grow; with a little left over to 'save' or for emergencies.

---
In mid 1960's minimum was $1.25 hour, 2009 was up to $7.25

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Post by voguy » 03-22-2014 04:48 PM

Not that I'm advocating this, but why do we have minimum wage? It seems to me if someone paid $3 per hour they would either not get anyone to work there, or draw the worse of the worst. It seems to me that an employer who pays good would attract the good workers and the ones not paying crap wouldn't be in business, (unless it's a real crappy job that nobody wants).

I wonder if minimum wage is not one of those things invented by politicians to capture people into a criteria which they tend not to escape. I don't know many people who work in minimum wage jobs who leave them for greener pastures.
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Post by kbot » 03-23-2014 05:55 AM

Was listening to one of John B's shows last night - he was interviewing the Hon David Walker, who is running as a candidate for Connecticut's Lt Governor's office. At one time he was the comptroller of the US GAO, so he has some insights into the economy.

I know we've all heard this before, but it bear's repeating simply to show either just how out of touch the government is, or how they lie to us - when publishing heir statistics on inflation, the government doesn't factor-in the costs of food an fuel.

Anyone who's gone shopping for either of these since 1980 knows that the costs have risen. Yet, the government doesn't use those costs when factoring the cost of living or inflation. Which is why people don't believe the government statistics.

If you get a chance to listen to this segment, its worth it.
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Post by kbot » 03-23-2014 06:00 AM

voguy wrote: Not that I'm advocating this, but why do we have minimum wage? It seems to me if someone paid per hour they would either not get anyone to work there, or draw the worse of the worst. It seems to me that an employer who pays good would attract the good workers and the ones not paying crap wouldn't be in business, (unless it's a real crappy job that nobody wants).

I wonder if minimum wage is not one of those things invented by politicians to capture people into a criteria which they tend not to escape. I don't know many people who work in minimum wage jobs who leave them for greener pastures.


I guess to set a benchmark for an entry-level position. It should also serve as an impetus to improve either one's skill-level or knowledge base so one can move on to a better job.

I can see where there are issues with, say, the hotel industry where maids get paid crap. Fr many, these are the best types of jobs hat they can get. But fast food - I have a problem with $15/ hour for dumping a bunch of potatoes into a deep-fat fryer or flipping burgers....... Sorry, did the job - it's not worth $15/ hour........ And really, they aren't even flipping burgers anymore - they're shoving them into microwaves.
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Post by Raggedyann » 03-23-2014 03:40 PM

kbot wrote: I guess to set a benchmark for an entry-level position. It should also serve as an impetus to improve either one's skill-level or knowledge base so one can move on to a better job.

I can see where there are issues with, say, the hotel industry where maids get paid crap. Fr many, these are the best types of jobs hat they can get. But fast food - I have a problem with / hour for dumping a bunch of potatoes into a deep-fat fryer or flipping burgers....... Sorry, did the job - it's not worth / hour........ And really, they aren't even flipping burgers anymore - they're shoving them into microwaves.
Kbot - you mentioned in another thread that you have noticed the price of food is going up and up. You probably make a pretty decent wage, so if you are noticing rising prices, then you can imagine how the people who are making $7.50 an hr are racking their brains trying to figure out how they are going to keep up with it.

They can't keep raising the cost of living without raising wages. We pay 3 times the amount of money for a burger now than we did 6 yrs ago. Why should these big companies make huge profits and not pay their employees a wage that is in line with the consumer index? Why should only the highly skilled and the rich among us have the luxury of incomes being raised to keep up with the cost of living? Why should these companies expect the tax payer to subsidize the lower wage groups with food stamps etc., when they can well afford to pay decent wages? This is unprecedented in western society. If these greedy bastards won't do the right thing, then they need be legislated into it.
Last edited by Raggedyann on 03-23-2014 03:45 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Cherry Kelly » 03-23-2014 03:52 PM

YES - food and gas prices are up again and going up more.

NOW consider this - California drought - veggies not going to grow until they allow water to go to farms instead of protecting some smelt fish.
Beef cattle have been sold -- elsewhere because they too were dying off from lack of food. Fewer milk cows - why? food problems there too.
Hog virus causing pork prices to go up.
Then without wheats to make breads and pastries - yup prices up.

Strange - go back to the 70s with the super high interest rates and look at the minimum wages back then. WE survived.

THE problem is lack of jobs so that higher level type workers are not forced into taking hamburger - drive through type low paying jobs. THAT is where one should concentrate - more jobs. WHY - because I can literally guarantee if people keep pushing more 'minimum' wages and it goes up - there will be even more people OUT of work entirely - OR cut in hours working.

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Post by kbot » 03-23-2014 04:40 PM

Raggedyann wrote: Kbot - you mentioned in another thread that you have noticed the price of food is going up and up. You probably make a pretty decent wage, so if you are noticing rising prices, then you can imagine how the people who are making .50 an hr are racking their brains trying to figure out how they are going to keep up with it.

They can't keep raising the cost of living without raising wages. We pay 3 times the amount of money for a burger now than we did 6 yrs ago. Why should these big companies make huge profits and not pay their employees a wage that is in line with the consumer index? Why should only the highly skilled and the rich among us have the luxury of incomes being raised to keep up with the cost of living? Why should these companies expect the tax payer to subsidize the lower wage groups with food stamps etc., when they can well afford to pay decent wages? This is unprecedented in western society. If these greedy bastards won't do the right thing, then they need be legislated into it.


Compared to a great many people around here, I do make a very good wage. And believe me, every day I am thankful that I have a job, because, where I work, it's getting to the point when you walk-in the door in the morning, you aren't sure if you'll be leaving with a job at the end of the ay.

Historically, the job market around here was mill-based/ textiles. When I was in high school, I told my father - who had worked at that time, in a mill for about 25 years, that I wanted to go to work in the mill, and he flipped out on me. My Dad was a WWII Marine and between that and working in the mills - that's basically all he knew and he didn't want to see me continue in his tracks. So, after working at McDonald's, local pizza parlors, janitorial work to pay my high school tuition (Catholic high school) I enlisted because there were no good-paying jobs back in the 70s around here and nothing attracted me for college. fast-forward about 40 years and what I learned in the military I built on over the years.

The point is, there is a difference between a minimum wage job and a living-wage job, and while the discussion here has been to quantify and define each term - since each relates to local economy, I think that it is unrealistic t thin k that a minimum wage job can possibly be thought of as a living-wage job.

I also think that at some point, people who are in a minimum wage job need to look forward and figure out how they ca get into a better paying job. I can't see a minimum wage job paying $15/ hour. But, as I said - all things are local. So, around here, $15/hour may be a stretch, but it makes perfect sense in New York because the cost of living is so high there. I just think that people who work year-in and year out at a minimum-paying job with no advancement in skills are asking a bit much when asking for such a high raise. Granted, cost of living adjustments is another matter altogether......
What the hell are we fighting for? Ah, just surrender and it won't hurt at all. You just got time to say your prayers. Yeah, while you're waiting for the hammer to fall. (Brian May of Queen)

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Post by Raggedyann » 03-23-2014 05:21 PM

If minimum wage jobs were taken up primarily by students in these times, I might agree with you Kbot. But this isn't the case now. You and I know that there are many people with skills and degrees working at McDonalds because there are no jobs to be had. Historically, the minimum wage has been increased in stable economic times, so a raise in this disastrous economy is untested. It remains to be seen what impact it would have. But I would support raising it, not err on the side of caution to keep undeserving people well below the poverty line.
Last edited by Raggedyann on 03-23-2014 05:26 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by kbot » 03-23-2014 05:56 PM

Cherry Kelly wrote: YES - food and gas prices are up again and going up more.

NOW consider this - California drought - veggies not going to grow until they allow water to go to farms instead of protecting some smelt fish


And the government said that they're not going to allow water to go to California this year for crops. Sp, expect food prices to skyrocket.

That's the brain trust in the government for ya....
What the hell are we fighting for? Ah, just surrender and it won't hurt at all. You just got time to say your prayers. Yeah, while you're waiting for the hammer to fall. (Brian May of Queen)

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Post by Riddick » 03-23-2014 06:37 PM

kbot wrote: That's the brain trust in the government for ya....
Well, like any good puppets we could always trust 'em to sit on their brains - The difference now is they're only doing what they're told by their NEW dark overlord.

From hereon in, whatever's going on you can trace it all back to HB3's handiwork. Hope it wasn't anything we said or did here that set him off.

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Post by kbot » 03-24-2014 06:55 AM

Raggedyann wrote: If minimum wage jobs were taken up primarily by students in these times, I might agree with you Kbot. But this isn't the case now. You and I know that there are many people with skills and degrees working at McDonalds because there are no jobs to be had. Historically, the minimum wage has been increased in stable economic times, so a raise in this disastrous economy is untested. It remains to be seen what impact it would have. But I would support raising it, not err on the side of caution to keep undeserving people well below the poverty line.


I'm not saying that undeserving people need to be kept below the poverty line. At the same time, people who go into a minimum wage job, stay there for years with no advancement in skills, cannot honestly expect a signifcant rise in pay if the job remains the same, and there is no appreciable skill sets added.

As far as the other issue of people moving from higher-paying to lower paying jobs due to the economy - I agree. To a point. People can't expect to move from a managerial job to an entry-level job and get the pay comparable to a managerial job. The only thing that will turn this around is our government - and they're not about to turn away from the gloablist model they've embraced. We're rapidly becoming the service industry capital of the world. Our manufacturing base is nearly gone and the government could care less.
What the hell are we fighting for? Ah, just surrender and it won't hurt at all. You just got time to say your prayers. Yeah, while you're waiting for the hammer to fall. (Brian May of Queen)

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Post by kbot » 03-24-2014 06:56 AM

Riddick wrote: Well, like any good puppets we could always trust 'em to sit on their brains - The difference now is they're only doing what they're told by their NEW dark overlord.

From hereon in, whatever's going on you can trace it all back to HB3's handiwork. Hope it wasn't anything we said or did here that set him off.


I certainly hope not either.

But, the government's bought and paid for, so they're doing their jobs. maybe one of these days people will recognize this and start over......
What the hell are we fighting for? Ah, just surrender and it won't hurt at all. You just got time to say your prayers. Yeah, while you're waiting for the hammer to fall. (Brian May of Queen)

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Post by Cherry Kelly » 03-24-2014 10:35 AM

The following is from minimum hourly wage pay
1997 5.15
2007 5.85
2008 6.55
2009 7.25

This represents a 70cent hour minimum raise and if you look up the history, more often the wage minimum did not go up every year as in 07-09. Notice gap of 10 years 1997-2007 and still it was only a 70cent raise.

Now we are hearing people demanding either a raise to 10.10 or 15.00. I say stick with the 70cent hour minimum pay raise. I say this as I look at IRS taxes. It means $28 more per week...if working 40 hour week.

NOW remember the raise to those on SS - the average there was $19 MONTH - how about raising that by the $28 per week? WELL we are talking about being FAIR aren't we?

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Post by kbot » 03-24-2014 11:40 AM

And then there are those cost increases. Been to the supermarket over the weekend?

Driving in this morning, I heard a caller on a radio show in RI asking about suspending income taxes in that state for three years. A number of states don' have state income or sales tax. Perhaps what needs to occur is for the government to go on a diet instead of striving to become the nationals top employer........

My taxes have gone up every year since I don't know when, and the local town services are a horror and many are asking what it is they're paying for.
What the hell are we fighting for? Ah, just surrender and it won't hurt at all. You just got time to say your prayers. Yeah, while you're waiting for the hammer to fall. (Brian May of Queen)

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