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Post by bobbo » 11-14-2011 05:13 PM

Dio--unless you think the Rich are paying exactly what and how they should (vague reference to total actually paid rather than the stated marginal rates that "no one" other than Michael Moore pays==but he is a fat man so he doesn't count! with exemptions and subsidies all in mind jerryrigged and paid for as they are) then the issue is more complex than just spending.

Care to amend?

Interesting book here from a child prodigy from Canada from Jamaican slave stock. Interesting man. Interesting country. A good foil for all things USA. Malcolm Gladwell and his discussion of how luck and hard work interplays and how they apply across a broad range of social issues. A good read for libs and cons alike.

http://www.amazon.com/Outliers-Story-Su ... 0316017922
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violating my own standards but

Post by bobbo » 11-14-2011 05:31 PM

Catch 22 is in my opinion the best book ever written. I recall my first introduction to it: "Those of you straight from High School will think its funny. Those of you from the military will find no humor at all." And so it was.

Movie was pretty good too but I wonder for those who hadn't read the book first.

Was the cotton ball transaction in the movie? probably too complex, but a better example of financial finagling.

Hey---two books in a row? A first.

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Re: violating my own standards but

Post by Diogenes » 11-14-2011 06:12 PM

bobbo wrote: Catch 22 is in my opinion the best book ever written. I recall my first introduction to it: "Those of you straight from High School will think its funny. Those of you from the military will find no humor at all." And so it was.

Movie was pretty good too but I wonder for those who hadn't read the book first.

Was the cotton ball transaction in the movie? probably too complex, but a better example of financial finagling.

Hey---two books in a row? A first.


Absolutely hirarious book - written in 1961 - freshman in HS and loved it.

I agree - the movie was such that if you did not read the book how could you possibly keep up with all - would be confusing I would think.
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Post by Diogenes » 11-14-2011 08:28 PM

bobbo wrote: Dio--unless you think the Rich are paying exactly what and how they should (vague reference to total actually paid rather than the stated marginal rates that "no one" other than Michael Moore pays==but he is a fat man so he doesn't count! with exemptions and subsidies all in mind jerryrigged and paid for as they are) then the issue is more complex than just spending.

Care to amend?

Interesting book here from a child prodigy from Canada from Jamaican slave stock. Interesting man. Interesting country. A good foil for all things USA. Malcolm Gladwell and his discussion of how luck and hard work interplays and how they apply across a broad range of social issues. A good read for libs and cons alike.

http://www.amazon.com/Outliers-Story-Su ... 0316017922


Bobbo,

Just downloaded the book to my IPAD.

I believe the federal tax code is some 75,000 pages with many thousands of regulations. I am for a flat tax period. Less room for fun and games and scheming and everyone has skin in the game and it's the same game for all.

Are the wealthy paying too much or too little? If they pay the majority of the federal income tax how much more should they have to pay and what would be enough?

Relative to spending - I don't believe the government has the right to ask any one of us for anything more - not the so called 1% or 99%, nor the 47% who pay no federal income tax for one more dime until they demonstrate serious efforts in trillions of dollars of spending cuts and they need to start with themselves.

Nobody or entity goes bankrupt overnight - there are signs and the situation with our entitlement spending alone should have been addressed years ago but neither party had the courage because they are there to get re-elected so there is that old conflict of interest.

We elected them to solve problems but so many are busy with their insider trading and becoming wealthy quickly that they are easily distracted.
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How do you know what you know and how do you change your min

Post by bobbo » 11-14-2011 08:59 PM

Dio--you sound convinced. Obviously you know, have reviewed, and have your answer to the top 3 complaints against any flat tax.

Care to footnote those for us?

When did you become convinced of this position?

How much tax revenue do you think is obtainable by whatever encouragement is possible from a family of four with two children age 3 and 6 working 3 minimum wage jobs and renting a two bedroom apartment?

What do you think is the "best" argument against the flat tax?

These are fair questions that have already been asked or tangentially referred to in this thread already but you have not directly answered them. You are so sure of your position--you must have strong arguments in support?

Perhaps this isn't an issue for you but I think it is a safety against abuse: I am always willing to answer any question I pose first to show I'm not trying to waste anyone else's time.

Of course--in the main, I say there are pro's and con's to any position taken. I can always list at least one argument in support of what I disagree with.

In this case, I would repeat what you have said and I have agreed to: having a flat tax federal income tax would get everyone into the game. The issue is one of pragmatism: how much money could be collected? I mean----really. Some times reality does ill to good ideas? Know what I mean?

Maybe include this in your considerations: a flat tax on what? Gross Income? Disposable Income? Invested Capital? And for extra credit--how does a flat tax treat everyone the same if the flat tax has a different EFFECT on people? Where do you judge the equal?

These are all well worn questions===as are the answers.

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Re: How do you know what you know and how do you change your

Post by Diogenes » 11-14-2011 09:46 PM

bobbo wrote: Dio--you sound convinced. Obviously you know, have reviewed, and have your answer to the top 3 complaints against any flat tax.

Care to footnote those for us?

When did you become convinced of this position?

How much tax revenue do you think is obtainable by whatever encouragement is possible from a family of four with two children age 3 and 6 working 3 minimum wage jobs and renting a two bedroom apartment?

What do you think is the "best" argument against the flat tax?

These are fair questions that have already been asked or tangentially referred to in this thread already but you have not directly answered them. You are so sure of your position--you must have strong arguments in support?

Perhaps this isn't an issue for you but I think it is a safety against abuse: I am always willing to answer any question I pose first to show I'm not trying to waste anyone else's time.

Of course--in the main, I say there are pro's and con's to any position taken. I can always list at least one argument in support of what I disagree with.

In this case, I would repeat what you have said and I have agreed to: having a flat tax federal income tax would get everyone into the game. The issue is one of pragmatism: how much money could be collected? I mean----really. Some times reality does ill to good ideas? Know what I mean?

Maybe include this in your considerations: a flat tax on what? Gross Income? Disposable Income? Invested Capital? And for extra credit--how does a flat tax treat everyone the same if the flat tax has a different EFFECT on people? Where do you judge the equal?

These are all well worn questions===as are the answers.


Bobbo,

I am convinced the current tax code is a convoluted mess with so many regulations, loop holes for all (including the wealthy) such as tax subsidies, etc. that I am for a simplification of the current tax code - that is what I am for and convinced of.

Possibly incorrect but that is my belief.

I would think taxing income rather than just wages would be more appropriate and would seem more fair - such as the Warren Buffet situation where he is so sorry his secretary is taxed at a higher rate than he - he receives no ordinary income and lives off of his investments taxed at I think 15%.

There are many reports which indicate monies collected with one flat tax scenario vs another, and I know you know that. Altering the tax code is not the only or a solution as if we don't reign in spending it means nothing.

You have previously commented on something tantamount to my being so sure of myself. Perhaps what you are sensing with my online voice is merely confidence or perhaps my style is more declarative and not always conducive to forums such as this. Don't know as I am new to this.

As I stated in a prior thread relative to Trolls - it would be no different if any of us were to meet in person - some would immediately connect and some not so much - so be it.

Welcome to the board, being referred by Dale is probably great fun and stimulating for you both.
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these droids are of no interest to you

Post by bobbo » 11-15-2011 12:35 AM

Dio--I must have phased out there or anticipated your ultimate position. You have not argued for a flat tax. Certainly with every man woman and child complaining that the tax code is too complicated, I can only agree with you that it should be simplified.

Good.

Glad we solved that problem.

Whats next?

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Re: these droids are of no interest to you

Post by Diogenes » 11-15-2011 09:09 AM

bobbo wrote: Dio--I must have phased out there or anticipated your ultimate position. You have not argued for a flat tax. Certainly with every man woman and child complaining that the tax code is too complicated, I can only agree with you that it should be simplified.

Good.

Glad we solved that problem.

Whats next?


Bobbo - first I want to thank you for not running my/your words together in a sentence/paragraph - Dyslexia and ADD aside it is much easier to read and respond - altho I sense my declarative answers are not to your liking.

After working all day, my reading at night aside, I admit I am guilty of "running" thru long missives - not an insult as I too enjoyed Joe Quinn - most of the time.

What is it you want from me relative to a flat tax - there is so much information/books out there which (naturally) support the theory - how can I possibly duplicate all of that for you here.

Do you really want to get into the minutia of the current day tax code vs a different method of taxing?

No tax code revision will solve our debt as long as spending and mismanagement and crony capitalism from our elected officials off our backs is at least somewhat addressed.

Hydra has many heads.

You tell me - what is next - you pick and I will play.
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Re: Re: these droids are of no interest to you

Post by Dale O Sea » 11-15-2011 10:40 AM

Diogenes wrote: ....No tax code revision will solve our debt as long as spending and mismanagement and crony capitalism from our elected officials off our backs is at least somewhat addressed. ...


Revisions guided by neither practical common sense or fiscal responsibility, but by millions of dollars from corporate donors to legislator's campaign funds will not work to any good end or solve anything..that's how our system makes revisions now and why we are in the state we are in.

Our system seems so broken that I don't know what will get it cycling properly again. We need to look to the past to make sure we don't make those same mistakes, but not for the solution. The issues with our economy are caused by modern problems and will need to have modern solutions applied to fix them. Modern often equates to new and different. Conservatives - moral, political and fiscal - flinch at these two adjectives most of the time - or just say no.

I guess what I'm saying is we can't keep trying to solve this using the same old broken methods.. I have no clue what will fix it, but I've seen what won't. I'm also not slamming conservative methods as those seem to keep crazy, overreaching ideas in check too..tho, that might be just what will fix things.

Dilemma gets me jumpy. :confused:
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Re: Re: Re: these droids are of no interest to you

Post by Diogenes » 11-15-2011 11:04 AM

Dale O Sea wrote: Revisions guided by neither practical common sense or fiscal responsibility, but by millions of dollars from corporate donors to legislator's campaign funds will not work to any good end or solve anything..that's how our system makes revisions now and why we are in the state we are in.

Our system seems so broken that I don't know what will get it cycling properly again. We need to look to the past to make sure we don't make those same mistakes, but not for the solution. The issues with our economy are caused by modern problems and will need to have modern solutions applied to fix them. Modern often equates to new and different. Conservatives - moral, political and fiscal - flinch at these two adjectives most of the time - or just say no.

I guess what I'm saying is we can't keep trying to solve this using the same old broken methods.. I have no clue what will fix it, but I've seen what won't. I'm also not slamming conservative methods as those seem to keep crazy, overreaching ideas in check too..tho, that might be just what will fix things.

Dilemma gets me jumpy. :confused:




You articulated far better than me and no wonder there is confusion because it's so big and times and changed it seems at warp speed since the internet.

I become angered because of the unfairness and lack of any type of concern for that old business adage "conflict of interest". When I say unfairness I am not referring to railing against the 99% and upholding the 1% - I am furious at our elected officials who have become wealthy themselves due to insider trading, taking advantage of those who put them there and all the rest.

To my knowledege only Madoff (WS) has gone to jail -am I incorrect about that? I understand the frustration as along with some pols there are some on WS who need to be prosecuted - but they won't because our elected officials are in it with them.

Honestly I have to admit I don't know if we will get there - I worry about the state of the union for my grandchild, just born.

Sign me

:confused:
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Post by Dale O Sea » 11-15-2011 11:56 AM

Congrats on Baby's arrival. :) I worry for your grandkid and others' too. I have three boys, all grown, ranging 21-30 - but none willing to bring a kid into this mess, much to their mom's understanding dismay, I might add.
To my knowledege only Madoff (WS) has gone to jail -am I incorrect about that? I understand the frustration as along with some pols there are some on WS who need to be prosecuted - but they won't because our elected officials are in it with them.
Some conspiracy theorists say that he's not even in prison, but has paid well to have a look-alike serve his term for him while he's lounging on a beach sipping Dom. Prison is big business now, so this doesn't sound all that far-fetched to me.

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Post by Dale O Sea » 11-15-2011 12:05 PM

Yes, Madoff is in prison..but many of the biggest crooks in all this have been put (back) in charge of the banks and the economy by our president.

But thank a deity of your choosing that Martha Stewart got her due! :rolleyes:

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Post by Diogenes » 11-15-2011 12:16 PM

Dale O Sea wrote: Yes, Madoff is in prison..but many of the biggest crooks in all this have been put (back) in charge of the banks and the economy by our president.

But thank a deity of your choosing that Martha Stewart got her due! :rolleyes:


Really pathetic when you think about that one isn't it.

See I get the frustration - just not sure of the tactic is all.
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Post by Cherry Kelly » 11-15-2011 03:26 PM

I have long advocated term limits - House and Senate. I would also change # of yrs per. ALSO they would have to reside in the state (area of state) that they are elected from - for a certain number of years PRIOR to and following the end of their term of office. (Still not too decided on total number of years, but would be in the teens up to 20 and no more.)

I would also TAX all donations to individuals or even party - no loopholes allowed. Probably at 20% whether its $1 or several thousands. Those taxes would go ONLY to pay down the debt.

And the lobbyists would be limited to contact ONLY at designated areas, must provide full disclosure of any $$ given from whomever they represent.

NO more riders (pork spending) allowed on Bills. Only exception would be riders that specifically pertain TO those Bills (ie clarify any questionable portions). AND every congress person (House and Senate) must PERSONALLY read and sign a sworn statement to having read the entire bill.

Also no more auto $$ to Fannie and Freddie - as currently exists.

ALL stimulus (loans) must be fully vetted, put on internet major newspapers, full accounting of every penny spent and ALL repaid to gov't. To include all CEO pay and bonuses given to anyone in whatever company receives said $$ until time when those $$ are repaid TO the gov't. (not including college loans to individuals)

AND - collect those IOUS and put them back into SS from which they were 'taken'. And the fraud done and collected with full accounting to the public!

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Post by bobbo » 11-15-2011 04:14 PM

Dio--as requested at #353 and exerpted from the same #353 you strongly imply your want to look at the spending side of the equation only? That is consistent with formulations of flat tax schemes which is consistent with current no new taxes strategy of the Puke Party. You say: "No tax code revision will solve our debt as long as spending and mismanagement and crony capitalism from our elected officials off our backs is at least somewhat addressed." /// Do I have your position correctly identified or how would you phrase it?

VOTE ALL "NO NEW TAXES" POLITICIANS OUT OF OFFICE.

Desiderata: Madoff has noting to say about tax policy or what is wrong in our governance and laws. His episode is one of isolated criminality but general lack of motivated enforcement and the conflict of interest of government officials moving into the private sector that they previously were responsible for. Obama promised to end this crony capitalism/lobbyist fraud==but has failed to deliver.

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