The Anger in America

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HB3
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Post by HB3 » 11-13-2011 04:27 PM

Meanwhile....
Two police officers attacked during Occupy SF march

By: Michael Whitney - Sun, 13 Nov 2011 02:55:29 -0800
SAN FRANCISCO (BCN) -- Two police officers were attacked with sharp objects by protestors in an Occupy San Francisco march this afternoon, police said.

Protestors were marching in the area of Embarcadero and Broadway around 3:30 p.m. today when the attacks occurred, according to police.

Officers accompanying the march were attempting to prevent demonstrators from taking over the middle of the intersection, where Muni light rail lines are located.

Police say a woman emerged from the crowd and attacked one of the officers with what was described as an exacto blade attached to a pen or pencil like object. She allegedly slashed the inside of the officers hand and ran back into the crowd before the officer had time to realize he had been cut.

At the same location, a protestors allegedly grabbed the radio of another officer and tried to run away into the crowd. When the officer pursued him, another demonstrator allegedly pushed the officer and cut his face and tore his uniform.

The officer was able to retrieve his radio, but both attackers escaped back into the crowd, police said.
Police are asking any witnesses to come forward to help identify the suspects and provide statements.
http://www.kron4.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=2280

But who cares? Assault is no different from being in a car accident or something.

bobbo
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please, let's be polite so I can ignore you more easily

Post by bobbo » 11-13-2011 04:33 PM

Diogenes--don't be too hard on HB, the job of being a moderator is hard. He also admitted to the error himself way before I did and corrected it. Thats a good thing.

HB--I take your word for it. We can always write better, if that is our nature, and we take the time.

This notion of "civility" is a sham though. Mostly a sham. I do come on strong for issues I feel strongly about. What is this very thread about? ------ANGER in America.

And too many want to dismiss what is ripping America apart, killing the middle class, by using code words and arguments that make no sense. NO SENSE AT ALL. That fat minded complacency arises only by being unchallenged. In the main, you can't connect your dots. Its all dogma==meaningless words conveying group identity and solidarity.

J'Accuse!!!

VOTE ALL "NO NEW TAXES" POLITICIANS OUT OF OFFICE.

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Alex--I'll have scrambled eggs for $100

Post by bobbo » 11-13-2011 04:42 PM

Hah, hah. Post #331 from HB. They are playing violins at the Oakland Occupation.

Let's parse the criticism:

But who cares? /// We all care. About different things no doubt. I care the OWS is being tarnished by irrelevant criminal activity of the protesters, the cops, and various interlopers. The message gets muddles, same as it ever was. What is your concern HB===or do we have to just assume its vague significance? That we should pay less in taxes and hire fewer cops to maintain law and order? Is that your point? I care. We should hire more cops and select, train, and discipline them as directed by the publics direction as best determined. Should free speech and peaceful political redress be protected or not? I say Yes.

Assault is no different from being in a car accident or something. /// What do you mean by this. I don't see any connection at all. Oh wait. Assault is a criminal activity that we need the authorities help to prevent and to aid the victims thereof. Car accidents arise from a variety of causations but likewise require the authorities to help to prevent and aid the victims thereof.

Good point. Anything else to add?

VOTE ALL "NO NEW TAXES" POLITICIANS OUT OF OFFICE.

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Re: Re: BWHAAAHAHAHAHAHA

Post by Diogenes » 11-13-2011 05:08 PM

HB3 wrote: Jesus Christ. Relative to this dick obsession you've developed, that was a typo. I edited my post right after I caught it. It's no mystery -- go back and read it again if you're interested.


Possibly a member of the Illuminati - they apparently were/are obsessed with the Phallus.
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Re: Alex--I'll have scrambled eggs for $100

Post by HB3 » 11-13-2011 05:10 PM

bobbo wrote: Good point. Anything else to add?


Try the salvia. I hear it's fabulous.

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Re: please, let's be polite so I can ignore you more easily

Post by Diogenes » 11-13-2011 05:17 PM

bobbo wrote: Diogenes--don't be too hard on HB, the job of being a moderator is hard. He also admitted to the error himself way before I did and corrected it. Thats a good thing.

HB--I take your word for it. We can always write better, if that is our nature, and we take the time.

This notion of "civility" is a sham though. Mostly a sham. I do come on strong for issues I feel strongly about. What is this very thread about? ------ANGER in America.

And too many want to dismiss what is ripping America apart, killing the middle class, by using code words and arguments that make no sense. NO SENSE AT ALL. That fat minded complacency arises only by being unchallenged. In the main, you can't connect your dots. Its all dogma==meaningless words conveying group identity and solidarity.

J'Accuse!!!

VOTE ALL "NO NEW TAXES" POLITICIANS OUT OF OFFICE.


There is no sham relative to manners and civility - again too simple I know.
A man's character is his fate

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life, what a trip

Post by bobbo » 11-13-2011 05:25 PM

HB--try the salvia? Gee whiz, that just doesn't make any sense at all to me. Is that what you mean by I've got a long way to go, to understand the lofty references and segues that are made here? I do need your help to make it===but since you have evidenced you won't do it for me, as in ME/bobbo, do it for the kiddies. The other people who come and read here but are afraid to post because they don't want to be told they are being uncivil, they are fat, they have a fixation because they mention one of your typos, or plainly are too stupid to figure out how the apparently stumbling Arab Spring informs us of the ills of OWS.

These posts may be addressed to specific fantacists, but they more deeply are missives to the entire world, nay, to posterity. But even if they were just drafts to one's self, surely the elucidation of the path from one dot to another is a worthy pursuit?

Yes, the entire point of a dialectic is to firm up one's position, one's argumentarium. Imagine constantly using an argument/taking a position that doesn't make any sense and that you can't explain? THAT can't be a good thing. Maybe the original premise needs to be rethought? Could that be possible HB? Surely not being able to support a position is a call for some kind of hope and change==not a call to shout louder, or shout down?

Heh, heh. Yeah. Pull my finger.

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Diogenes to the rescue, what hangs under his horse?

Post by bobbo » 11-13-2011 05:30 PM

Dio---I think you missed the downtown bus totally. The uncivility such as it was was issued by HB while he was criticizing me for lack of same. When I make criticisms, I have FACTS to back them up, valid even when later they turn out to be typos. Fair enough. Typo's exist. When I make an arugment or a point, I have analysis/a train of thought to back them up. A Sham exists when direct confrontation is avoided by a false reference to lack of civility. It may be, but I haven't seen it as often as it is claimed. So I ask for examples/reasoning. Examples and reasoning like I was willing to provide myself. None are forthcoming.

Thats a sham wouldn't you agree?
Last edited by bobbo on 11-13-2011 05:33 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: words, even cartoons, have meaning

Post by Diogenes » 11-13-2011 05:54 PM

bobbo wrote: So the cartoon was a joke. Calling Sigmund Freud: we have a trainload of bananas about to enter a tunnel.

Is claiming people living in poverty should also pay something another joke?

Please tell me what you think the appropriate federal income tax should be for a family of two "earning" minimum wages at two jobs while the tv babysits their two kiddies should pay.

9-9-9 I assume?

How much blood do you estimate is in a rock?

You remind me of the business expert who review the operations statement of a movie theater. He found all the profit was made in selling popcorn and all too often the tickets sold did not even cover the cost of renting the films. He advised our taxpayer to just sell popcorn.

Yes----tax the poor. They are undeserving of the good life they have.

Lets see.......nearly 900 posts. Is that a high number of posts for critical review purposes? I hesitate to tell you that these notions of taxing the poor out of a notion of fairness is.......is......not financially sound.

Is this tax goal of yours another joke? Context really is everything---you guys are a laugh riot when viewed as a cartoon. Fun........nee.


My opinion of everyone paying taxes is no joke - I was serious, but of course you knew that. Did I say they would be in the 50% federal income tax bracket - no but everyone should pay SOMETHING.

This is where I believe we make our own luck - an example would be what makes anyone think if you and your spouse are making minimum wage you should have children - what about that makes sense. Minimum wage was never meant to be a living wage, but then as smart as you are you know that too.

I don't believe I mentioned or indicated I am an expert in anything - perhaps you have interpreted my opinions to infer I am or think I am a business expert. Your example relative to the theater owner is as boorish as you.

For someone who is relatively new to this site you have been obnoxious and insulting - right out of the box.

There is a way to engage and offer differing opinions without demonstrating the tactics of a battering ram. I understand passion - don't confuse your approach with passion.
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Diogenes scores a substantive hit.

Post by bobbo » 11-13-2011 06:20 PM

My opinion of everyone paying taxes is no joke - I was serious, but of course you knew that. /// No, I actually was hoping for more from you. Even now you don't explain how someone with NO MONEY can pay taxes. Even Bachman got it down to $10.00 per year as in "they ought to pay something." Can you wrap your head around working for minumum wage is a contribution to our society in very much the same way that paying federal income taxes are? Or do I have you completely wrong and that wages should be increased so that poor people have some disposable income with which to pay taxes?

I was very uncivil to a friend of mine a few years ago. We were on the phone and he was complaining that one of his tax avoidance shelters had been ruled noncompliant and he was going to have to pay $150K more than he had planned. Not even making $150K at the time, I told him to go f*ck himself. Then we both laughed, because we are friends.

Sorry to be so boorish, but would you rather have a minimum wage job and be a leech on the Super Rich or be Super Rich and get raped once a year having to pay an additional $150K in taxes you weren't planning on? Ha, ha.
xxxxxxxxxxx

Did I say they would be in the 50% federal income tax bracket - no but everyone should pay SOMETHING. /// Why? or maybe more pragmatically----HOW????? C'mon==tell us why the poor should pay more in taxes. The top .5 percent holding/controlling 40% of the wealth in the USA is not enough, they need more. The poor should do their share? Sell their crutches? Give us your reasoning--your argument!!!

This is where I believe we make our own luck - an example would be what makes anyone think if you and your spouse are making minimum wage you should have children - what about that makes sense. //// Well, in any properly constructed Ponzi Scheme, you need more people joining the scheme to keep it going. The graying of Japan and Europe is cited as a growing disaster for them while USA is "lucky" to have illegal immigration and welfare queens squirting out the next generation to pay the taxes they do, work at minimum wage as they do, all getting that slice of the pie up from only 40%. Where ya been? The rich are too busy to raise kiddies. Its what the poor have always been relied upon to do.

Minimum wage was never meant to be a living wage, but then as smart as you are you know that too. /// I know thats what Pukes and Liebertards never meant. But why not require a living wage? You know---"living wage." Lots of consequences to having a "reverse income tax" system. But then we might go down to the Super Rich only controlling 30% of Americas wealth. They might leave and take their money to Switzerland. Can't have that.

I don't believe I mentioned or indicated I am an expert in anything - /// Indeed, that is the way you post.

perhaps you have interpreted my opinions to infer I am or think I am a business expert. /// No, just the opposite.

Your example relative to the theater owner is as boorish as you. /// Really? I thought it was clever and revealing. But as you called me boorish, I took that as license to agree with you above.

For someone who is relatively new to this site you have been obnoxious and insulting - right out of the box. /// We take our pleasure and displeasure as we may. I was enthused and motivated reading a few posts by Joe Quinn==but he didn't post to these political threads. Too bad. I guess he was avoiding the pain that is unmentionable and won't go away? Only small minds get insulted. Good practice for you to "rise above it" when you come across it. Or not. Its all about choices isn't it?

There is a way to engage and offer differing opinions without demonstrating the tactics of a battering ram. /// Ah---now there you have me. I'll cop to that. I am too direct. Maybe I should be more sneaky. More polite. You know the drill?

I understand passion - don't confuse your approach with passion. /// More narrowly---its ANGER. People staking out/making/supporting/voting political positions that they can't support and tear down others trying to make things better. Its hard to argue the wealth disparity we currently see putting us on third world banana republic status is something that does not need to change. Taxing the poor and cutting social programs is NOT GOING TO GET US THERE, rather only tighten the death spiral. Its plain and easy to see. Just as are sham postings.

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Re: Diogenes scores a substantive hit.

Post by Diogenes » 11-13-2011 07:04 PM

bobbo wrote: My opinion of everyone paying taxes is no joke - I was serious, but of course you knew that. /// No, I actually was hoping for more from you. Even now you don't explain how someone with NO MONEY can pay taxes. Even Bachman got it down to .00 per year as in "they ought to pay something." Can you wrap your head around working for minumum wage is a contribution to our society in very much the same way that paying federal income taxes are? Or do I have you completely wrong and that wages should be increased so that poor people have some disposable income with which to pay taxes?

I was very uncivil to a friend of mine a few years ago. We were on the phone and he was complaining that one of his tax avoidance shelters had been ruled noncompliant and he was going to have to pay 0K more than he had planned. Not even making 0K at the time, I told him to go f*ck himself. Then we both laughed, because we are friends.

Sorry to be so boorish, but would you rather have a minimum wage job and be a leech on the Super Rich or be Super Rich and get raped once a year having to pay an additional 0K in taxes you weren't planning on? Ha, ha.
xxxxxxxxxxx

Did I say they would be in the 50% federal income tax bracket - no but everyone should pay SOMETHING. /// Why? or maybe more pragmatically----HOW????? C'mon==tell us why the poor should pay more in taxes. The top .5 percent holding/controlling 40% of the wealth in the USA is not enough, they need more. The poor should do their share? Sell their crutches? Give us your reasoning--your argument!!!

This is where I believe we make our own luck - an example would be what makes anyone think if you and your spouse are making minimum wage you should have children - what about that makes sense. //// Well, in any properly constructed Ponzi Scheme, you need more people joining the scheme to keep it going. The graying of Japan and Europe is cited as a growing disaster for them while USA is "lucky" to have illegal immigration and welfare queens squirting out the next generation to pay the taxes they do, work at minimum wage as they do, all getting that slice of the pie up from only 40%. Where ya been? The rich are too busy to raise kiddies. Its what the poor have always been relied upon to do.

Minimum wage was never meant to be a living wage, but then as smart as you are you know that too. /// I know thats what Pukes and Liebertards never meant. But why not require a living wage? You know---"living wage." Lots of consequences to having a "reverse income tax" system. But then we might go down to the Super Rich only controlling 30% of Americas wealth. They might leave and take their money to Switzerland. Can't have that.

I don't believe I mentioned or indicated I am an expert in anything - /// Indeed, that is the way you post.

perhaps you have interpreted my opinions to infer I am or think I am a business expert. /// No, just the opposite.

Your example relative to the theater owner is as boorish as you. /// Really? I thought it was clever and revealing. But as you called me boorish, I took that as license to agree with you above.

For someone who is relatively new to this site you have been obnoxious and insulting - right out of the box. /// We take our pleasure and displeasure as we may. I was enthused and motivated reading a few posts by Joe Quinn==but he didn't post to these political threads. Too bad. I guess he was avoiding the pain that is unmentionable and won't go away? Only small minds get insulted. Good practice for you to "rise above it" when you come across it. Or not. Its all about choices isn't it?

There is a way to engage and offer differing opinions without demonstrating the tactics of a battering ram. /// Ah---now there you have me. I'll cop to that. I am too direct. Maybe I should be more sneaky. More polite. You know the drill?

I understand passion - don't confuse your approach with passion. /// More narrowly---its ANGER. People staking out/making/supporting/voting political positions that they can't support and tear down others trying to make things better. Its hard to argue the wealth disparity we currently see putting us on third world banana republic status is something that does not need to change. Taxing the poor and cutting social programs is NOT GOING TO GET US THERE, rather only tighten the death spiral. Its plain and easy to see. Just as are sham postings.


I would not call your method of interaction direct - but then I covered that didn't I?

Perhaps you are simply too smart for me to spar with or as you like to say "parse: with. I viewed it as no sense to give you a number in terms of taxes for all as I don't know that any number no matter how nominal would suit you - but a buck a month sounds good to me as telling people they are too poor to pay federal income tax smacks frankly of condescension.

Probably we are not meant to converse because I've never been angry in the sense of feeling like someone who has something has to give it to me so I can have something too. I have never been envious of those with more of anything because there is always someone who has more - I am referring to material things and money. I work hard and have for a long time and have made some of my own luck in various ways. I've been blessed with good health so far and if you want to view that as luck so be it.

I view a hand up preferable to a hand out. A hand up gets a person on their way while trying to do better. To pay folks to stay home and deprive them of the opportunity to become independent (if they are able) as per the welfare system, is unfathomable to me and I have no understanding of that concept.

Along with taxing the rich further why not look into those social programs - many which are rife with fraud - Medicare alone costs the taxpayers B a year. Of course now I am running the risk of sounding like the theater owner/popcorn manager, etc.

You didn't insult me - I've covered the boorish and would have to throw in unkind. Direct doesn't bother me but you come across as unkind and right out of the chute - again choices.


















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working back from the Abyss

Post by bobbo » 11-13-2011 07:39 PM

Diogenes: well done. We are struggling towards common ground.

Let's parse. It helps me be direct, responsive, fact oriented, objective.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I would not call your method of interaction direct - but then I covered that didn't I? /// You had a few adjectives yes. You read a set of words and call them boorish or insulting. I read the same words and call them direct. Certainly lots of overlap but the IMPORTANT THING is the transmission of ideas. Worth a slap or two in my book. YMMV.

Perhaps you are simply too smart for me to spar with or as you like to say "parse: with. /// No. Smart has nothing to do with it, neither does dumb. Its RIGOR. Structure. Can I/do I back up what I say with examples, links, argument, definitions? Or do I just make a statement and then run away from it?

I viewed it as no sense to give you a number in terms of taxes for all as I don't know that any number no matter how nominal would suit you - but a buck a month sounds good to me as telling people they are too poor to pay federal income tax smacks frankly of condescension. /// Well there you go. You know what ass-sume means I'm sure. You should ALWAYS back up your positions with DETAILS. Do you really think "Poor People should pay taxes" means a buck a month? I AM AGAINST THAT===DON'T WANT MY TAX DOLLARS WASTED spending 300 dollars per year to keep track of one dollar per month. -Or- ((watch the consideration of both sides!!!!---try it!)) is this really by way of another social spending program to better the mental health of the poor as you suggest. Give them a sense of involvement and contribution? I hadn't thought of that. See?????? Provide some facts and details and the disagreement goes away.

Probably we are not meant to converse because I've never been angry in the sense of feeling like someone who has something has to give it to me so I can have something too. // Yea, thats the ticket. Tax/social policy is "giving" people your stuff. Very mature.

I have never been envious of those with more of anything because there is always someone who has more - I am referring to material things and money. /// Well, I don't believe you. Envy is natural and expected. Its what you DO with those emotions that count. Sounds like you have it worked out. But there is a big difference in not begrudging the Rich Guy his Mercedez, Vacations, and Big House as long as you have your Toyota, time off, and home your call your own verses the Rich guy imposing an additional 9% sales tax on food, clothing and shelter while your are holding down two jobs trying to make ends meet. Know what I mean?

I work hard and have for a long time and have made some of my own luck in various ways. /// Yeah--most people do. Most poor people do. Of course you "position yourself to take advantage of opportunities as they arise." but===what makes those opportunities arise? Luck. There are all kinds of luck. Provides a bit of balance in one's appreciation of life and the luck/hard work we have the privilege to exercise.

I've been blessed with good health so far and if you want to view that as luck so be it. /// You don't? You think those early childhood immunizations were you willing yourself to good health? Or was it the luck of having parents who cared--or a school system that required proof of immunization in order to attend? Should poor work to earn the cost of basic immunization or be exposed to disease if they don't have the money===you know, the money that you are forced to give them. But btw==do you see any benefit at all to you not being exposed to the diseases that un-immunized people carry around? Much of social benefit it like that. YOU give up thru tax and public health policies the cost of keeping the public healthy===and you benefit from it. Do you agree you benefit from it, or do you only want to benefit from your own luck? Assuming your agreement--the rest of social policy readily continues on much the same rational.

I view a hand up preferable to a hand out. A hand up gets a person on their way while trying to do better. To pay folks to stay home and deprive them of the opportunity to become independent (if they are able) as per the welfare system, is unfathomable to me and I have no understanding of that concept. /// Ha, ha. I can see the coming/already here structural unemployment is going to constitute some tough sledding for you. How many people are paid to stay home when they are capable of being independent? Who are these people?===but how many? Does each one have an elf in their pocket as well? How about a rule that no such people get any of your money if they ride unicorns? Would that help address the issue of the worthless poor just leeching off of our efforts?

Along with taxing the rich further why not look into those social programs - many which are rife with fraud - Medicare alone costs the taxpayers $60B a year. Of course now I am running the risk of sounding like the theater owner/popcorn manager, etc. /// No, I don't see the link to the "joke" about not seeing the whole picture, how the parts work together. Good to see you are for Obama Care and getting rid of the useless overhead and duplicative cost associated with for profit competitive medicine leaving the USA paying twice what any other system pays per capita while ranking in the declining 30's from the top in outcomes. Yes, lots of waste in for profit medicine/rip offs.

You didn't insult me - I've covered the boorish and would have to throw in unkind. /// Oh, thats good to know. So posted that I'm insulting, but you weren't insulted yourself? I'm just unkind. Please post the exact words/sentence I used that you think were either? I can see a few candidates, but I'm interested in how you parse those two ideas.

Direct doesn't bother me but you come across as unkind and right out of the chute - again choices. /// Basically a restatement. Yes, its very kind to characterize the OWS as a bunch of criminals who are wasting our tax resources by their silly protests. Kind to advise them to shut up and go home. Very kind indeed. I take your counsel on that.

But what is the BS about being new to the forum? Ha, ha. Quite a substantive criticism of anything said: "Hey==I was here first: "Repeck mah authoratay!" What a douchebag idea. How would you say that with kindness? Heat before inserting?

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Post by Cherry Kelly » 11-14-2011 02:40 PM

1 - everyone pays taxes, whether federal, state, county or city.
Example: look at your utilities - you will see them listed as taxes. Own property - you know about taxes you pay. Rent - you are paying taxes as part of the rent$$ is taxes.

2 - Taxes are not based on reality. IE: Cost of living in a major city compared to the cost of living in a small rural area (or town) is vastly different. (quite often so are pay scales)

3 - Medicare is a prepaid medical insurance for when you qualify for it (retirement age as prime example). The problem is twofold, one is obvious fraud that has been exposed and failure to recover those $$. The second is the ever increasing costs of medical care.

4 - Medicaid is the costly one as its freebie paid for by taxpayers. In essence "we the people" are already paying for medical care for those who do not have medical insurance.

5 - Medical insurance is too expensive and when it was proposed we would have a medical "savings" type program - the insurance companies found loopholes - change their home office to different state is one example. The medical insurance savings meant that if you did not use your insurance to pay for medical care a small portion would go into an account with YOUR name on it -- for future emergencies, or if you changed jobs or company changed insurance carriers - that portion (savings) would stay with the individual.

6 - We have far more critical problems going on than just the tax and medical situations...perhaps we should see about 'working' on those.?

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everything is connected to everything else. No.....really.

Post by bobbo » 11-14-2011 03:22 PM

Cherry==all good points. But why backtrack and conclude that we have more important things than tax and medical situations, especially without even identifying them?

Contra: tax is all about the cutting/failure to raise them thats been going on for the last 10 years resulting in increased budget deficits resulting in increased accumulated debt resulting in decreased USA power and authority in world and domestic affairs. Whats more important than that?

Likewise, medical situations is an exemplar of the social safety net, the basics of life required by all people, the spending priorities of our government, again all feeding into the budget and taxing/spending/deficit/power issues. What could be more important than that?

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Post by Diogenes » 11-14-2011 03:53 PM

For me the point of the argument is as a country we are coming apart at the seams with all of the spending which we have for the multiples of reasons - no matter one's opinion of valid spending or not - with such a large and growing pool of those also not contributing with federal income tax. The money has to come from somewhere and if there is a tax system in place for those earning income let people pay something based upon a tax code which acknowledges the smallest of earners to the mega earners.

How does one explain federal tax returns for some who pay no federal income tax based upon qualifying for tax credits.



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