False. In any gathering you will have good guys and bad guys. It is not the environment, it is human nature.Dude...if there's a particular environment producing certain dangerous behaviors that means there's something dangerous about that specific environment. This is not rocket science.
The Anger in America
Moderator: Super Moderators
It's strange how in these conversations we have to get back to the basics. I can only attribute this to ideological intransigence. So, to state what should be obvious: human nature may be a constant, but we also know, from long historical experience, that human nature does not express itself the same way in all environments. This is the foundational concept of civilization. Certain environments bring out different behaviors, and, having brought them out, either rewards, punishes, or does nothing about them. These responses will further determine future behaviors. Moreover, this phenomenon is relatively predictable. A particular social environment will continue to repeat its results.
analysis in a vacuum is mostly irrelevant
and usually as far as it goes.
EVERYTHING has pro's and con's attached to it and to every alternative to "it."
Take OWS. There are pro's and con's to it.
Take the status quo. There are pro's and con's to it.
Can't understand a thing if you don't set forth the pro's and cons of OWS, then the P&C's of the status quo====THEN COMPARE AND CONTRAST. Still subject to manipulation of course but anything less is nothing but manipulation.
"There is crime taking place at the OWS!" Yes, Id call that a con. The pro is that the awakening awareness of the destruction of the middle class hopefully will lead to changes in our society bringing the pendulum of economic fairness back towards the middle?
COMPARE AND CONTRAST: The is rampant crime taking place every tenth second on Wall Street with every automated trade taking place every hour of the day resulting in the destruction of the middle class. People losing jobs, retirement, homes. committing suicide in their desperation. Kiddies not leaving home, not getting married, returning home jobless to play video games instead of engage life. AND ITS ONLY GETTING WORSE until the public WAKES UP and elects politicians to change this.
What could possibly WAKE UP the public?????????????
Oh---its inconvenient.
Dolts.
EVERYTHING has pro's and con's attached to it and to every alternative to "it."
Take OWS. There are pro's and con's to it.
Take the status quo. There are pro's and con's to it.
Can't understand a thing if you don't set forth the pro's and cons of OWS, then the P&C's of the status quo====THEN COMPARE AND CONTRAST. Still subject to manipulation of course but anything less is nothing but manipulation.
"There is crime taking place at the OWS!" Yes, Id call that a con. The pro is that the awakening awareness of the destruction of the middle class hopefully will lead to changes in our society bringing the pendulum of economic fairness back towards the middle?
COMPARE AND CONTRAST: The is rampant crime taking place every tenth second on Wall Street with every automated trade taking place every hour of the day resulting in the destruction of the middle class. People losing jobs, retirement, homes. committing suicide in their desperation. Kiddies not leaving home, not getting married, returning home jobless to play video games instead of engage life. AND ITS ONLY GETTING WORSE until the public WAKES UP and elects politicians to change this.
What could possibly WAKE UP the public?????????????
Oh---its inconvenient.
Dolts.
More from Oakland....
http://www.kron.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=2272Some Occupy Oakland Protestors Leave Saying Conditions Unsafe After Thursday Murder
By: Brian Shields - Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:15:43 -0800
OAKLAND (KRON) -- Some members of the Occupy Oakland movement say they no longer feel safe in the encampment in Frank Ogawa Plaza a day after a shooting that left one person dead.
KRON 4's Will Tran talked with one man who says he's been at the plaza since the beginning of the protest a month ago who says security inside the tent city is non-existent.
The man, who did not want his face shown on camera, says he witnessed the shooting.
"They popped off five shots and shot the dude," the protestor told Will. "He went down and I watched him take his last breath. It's not a movement any more. It's a place for someone to come and hide who has a parole hold. There are parolees at large hiding in there. I personally know of two guys they're looking for armed robbery hiding in there because the police won't go in there."
Will says it appears police were staying outside the perimeter of the tent city throughout Friday morning. He says another woman came to the camp later in the morning to hand out a series of flyers urging demonstrators to go home.
"I have five different ones," the woman said while showing off her handouts. "One is 'Occupiers go home and figure out effective political action. Leave Downtown Oakland to the citizens of Oakland. You do not represent us. Mob rule is not Democracy.'"
Oakland police officers, through their union, are also urging the demonstrators to leave.
"Last night’s murder, right in the epicenter of Occupy Oakland, is unacceptable,"the Oakland Police Officer's Association said in an "open letter" to the Occupy demonstrators. "So is the violence being promoted by “renegade” protesters who are lighting firebombs, destroying property and attacking police. What is even more tragic is that homicides are a frequent occurrence in Oakland. This is the real emergency: Yesterday’s murder was Oakland’s 101st homicide of 2011. It is time for us to stop directing all of our efforts at policing the small enclave of “Occupy Oakland” and get back to our job of protecting the citizens of Oakland in the neighborhoods where our residents live."
Will reports he saw some demonstrators packing up and leaving the area in the wake of the latest violence. Many others say they plan to remain indefinitely.
The folks wanting to make change are growing disinterested due to lack of foreseeable change, and as they go their ranks are being replaced by the misfits and malcontents who have a whole different mission in mind.
As I said before, while the idea of OWS had merit and demonstrated that people wanted something different, their placement of passion and anger is unfocused, thusly doomed for failure.
A good analogy is someone who starts a family restaurant on a dead-end country road, rather than Main Street or a U.S. highway. While the intent and passion is noble, it has no chance of success because of it being ill-planned and on a road to nowhere.
I still maintain that had the original OWS people set a mission to OC (occupy Congress), there might have been change. The Wall Street bankers simply avoided the protesters, or work from home, leaving the protesters impotent to affect change.
Had the focus been on the legislative bodies and caused Congress to have to duck and hide two things would have happened. Right now Congress has no reason to want to deal with the issue, other than getting encouraged to support the wholesale cleanout of the camps. Assuming they could keep protests peaceful in the halls of Congress, our reps would have to deal with the protests and inconveniences. In dealing with the protesters they would have to focus their attention on the real reasons for the need for change.
While I don't agree with the OWS methods, (and certainly their madness), the OWS groups do show a passion for change and an anger in how the system treats its citizens.
There is an odd parallel to the Detroit and L.A. riots in this. With the riots, the people wanted justice and change, and to show their frustration they burned down their homes, and ran businesses out of their neighborhoods. Again, while the need for change was noble, the focus of anger was misplaced. In the case of Detroit, all that is left is a blight. But had every angered citizen went after the government officials and buildings, instead of their own neighborhoods and businesses, Detroit could have been turned around.
As I said before, while the idea of OWS had merit and demonstrated that people wanted something different, their placement of passion and anger is unfocused, thusly doomed for failure.
A good analogy is someone who starts a family restaurant on a dead-end country road, rather than Main Street or a U.S. highway. While the intent and passion is noble, it has no chance of success because of it being ill-planned and on a road to nowhere.
I still maintain that had the original OWS people set a mission to OC (occupy Congress), there might have been change. The Wall Street bankers simply avoided the protesters, or work from home, leaving the protesters impotent to affect change.
Had the focus been on the legislative bodies and caused Congress to have to duck and hide two things would have happened. Right now Congress has no reason to want to deal with the issue, other than getting encouraged to support the wholesale cleanout of the camps. Assuming they could keep protests peaceful in the halls of Congress, our reps would have to deal with the protests and inconveniences. In dealing with the protesters they would have to focus their attention on the real reasons for the need for change.
While I don't agree with the OWS methods, (and certainly their madness), the OWS groups do show a passion for change and an anger in how the system treats its citizens.
There is an odd parallel to the Detroit and L.A. riots in this. With the riots, the people wanted justice and change, and to show their frustration they burned down their homes, and ran businesses out of their neighborhoods. Again, while the need for change was noble, the focus of anger was misplaced. In the case of Detroit, all that is left is a blight. But had every angered citizen went after the government officials and buildings, instead of their own neighborhoods and businesses, Detroit could have been turned around.
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." - Thomas Jefferson
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Dale O Sea
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Instead of The People bitching to and about the govt, that fatso stinky-head commie Michael Moore did it and turned a tidy profit too. Drop the ball and who knows who will pick it up..VOGuy said: "....There is an odd parallel to the Detroit and L.A. riots in this. With the riots, the people wanted justice and change, and to show their frustration they burned down their homes, and ran businesses out of their neighborhoods. Again, while the need for change was noble, the focus of anger was misplaced. In the case of Detroit, all that is left is a blight. But had every angered citizen went after the government officials and buildings, instead of their own neighborhoods and businesses, Detroit could have been turned around.
There are some really good posts in this thread..and some real clankers too. I should have read it weeks ago but it seemed to be devoted too much at mean spirited analysis and insults.
Remember the OP and Hank Jr? There's also his boy, Hank III, who doesn't
mince his lyrics.
Warning - Explicit lyrics - tender ears should take a pass. Over two months ago, almost three, just after mid-September, I think, when I first heard of the Occupy protests and what they were doing I thought, this is very similar to what the tea partiers want with many of the same gripes about the same bunch of crooks. But somehow it has been twisted into another red v. blue, us against them hatefest. And the haters glom on with froth and negative energy which feeds even more hate. Both movements, the tea party and ows have been co-opted by outside interests of all flavors and have all but lost their grass roots foundations, so what's going on now is quite a distance from the ideals that spawned them. To me tho, they still speak loud that there is much unresolved anger and not nearly enough jobs for 100% of US.
Sheeple and haters are two terms I'm not real fond of, but seem very apt here. Sorry for meme dropping rant..sorry for US too.
Dale O Sea wrote: Instead of The People bitching to and about the govt, that fatso stinky-head commie Michael Moore did it and turned a tidy profit too. Drop the ball and who knows who will pick it up..
There are some really good posts in this thread..and some real clankers too. I should have read it weeks ago but it seemed to be devoted too much at mean spirited analysis and insults.
Remember the OP and Hank Jr? There's also his boy, Hank III, who doesn't
mince his lyrics.
Over two months ago, almost three, just after mid-September, I think, when I first heard of the Occupy protests and what they were doing I thought, this is very similar to what the tea partiers want with many of the same gripes about the same bunch of crooks. But somehow it has been twisted into another red v. blue, us against them hatefest. And the haters glom on with froth and negative energy which feeds even more hate. Both movements, the tea party and ows have been co-opted by outside interests of all flavors and have all but lost their grass roots foundations, so what's going on now is quite a distance from the ideals that spawned them. To me tho, they still speak loud that there is much unresolved anger and not nearly enough jobs for 100% of US.
Sheeple and haters are two terms I'm not real fond of, but seem very apt here. Sorry for meme dropping rant..sorry for US too.
I agree with your comment about sheep and haters - from what I have observed this is all I've seen with the OWS.
I have not been to an actual encampment but I have followed it best I can with radio, television, and what I read.
Last edited by Diogenes on 11-12-2011 02:06 PM, edited 1 time in total.
A man's character is his fate
everything has its own context
What short attention spans this group has.
Not a wine or cheese maker in the group I wager.
HEY!!!!===its been 6 weeks. Only the earliest beaujolais is now being shipped. Give the sauvignon a chance!!!
Does seem like there has been enough time to prosecute a few wallstreeters though. Bitter vinegar?
Not a wine or cheese maker in the group I wager.
HEY!!!!===its been 6 weeks. Only the earliest beaujolais is now being shipped. Give the sauvignon a chance!!!
Does seem like there has been enough time to prosecute a few wallstreeters though. Bitter vinegar?
Simplistic yes but to the point "camping is a tactic, not a solution."
http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/22 ... 22623.html
In terms of posts if this is a clanker - well not all are Hemingway or even Dilbert.
http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/22 ... 22623.html
In terms of posts if this is a clanker - well not all are Hemingway or even Dilbert.
A man's character is his fate
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Dale O Sea
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Tactic..sounds so military - like a battle plan.
Solution..nope, not like that at all.
It took our mainstream media over ten days to acknowledge there was anything going on during the original ows protests. Not just Murdoch's fochsnews, the so called left-wing msm too.
The system is geared to make rich people more so at the expense of the middle class and other working people, the few with jobs anyway. This is the message, the delivery is yelling it indefinitely till it's heard and hopefully acted on from outside the place. Both parties in power are responsible for this situation and voting in change either way has changed nothing.
Screw both parties and all their blind, loyal, line-toeing followers
These people aren't right or left now..they are hurting. Now you hear them.
Fan was right when he said some are missing the point of it all. The Tea Party and this group's points are plain to me. People can't take it anymore and they know that the ones they elect aren't there for them but there for whoever has the power or money to buy their office.
Don't worry tho Diogenes, it's getting close to some big primaries and the big dance is less than a year off, so I expect boots in the parks clearing the protester very soon. Then you will see the real, official, govt sanctioned killing, not just one more Oakland shooting or yet another of our veteran's not adjusting to life in these upside down United States.
Solution..nope, not like that at all.
It took our mainstream media over ten days to acknowledge there was anything going on during the original ows protests. Not just Murdoch's fochsnews, the so called left-wing msm too.
The system is geared to make rich people more so at the expense of the middle class and other working people, the few with jobs anyway. This is the message, the delivery is yelling it indefinitely till it's heard and hopefully acted on from outside the place. Both parties in power are responsible for this situation and voting in change either way has changed nothing.
Screw both parties and all their blind, loyal, line-toeing followers
These people aren't right or left now..they are hurting. Now you hear them.
Fan was right when he said some are missing the point of it all. The Tea Party and this group's points are plain to me. People can't take it anymore and they know that the ones they elect aren't there for them but there for whoever has the power or money to buy their office.
Don't worry tho Diogenes, it's getting close to some big primaries and the big dance is less than a year off, so I expect boots in the parks clearing the protester very soon. Then you will see the real, official, govt sanctioned killing, not just one more Oakland shooting or yet another of our veteran's not adjusting to life in these upside down United States.
[size=0]"Question everything, especially your media and their motives. -Me[/size]
Dogma has its own special language
Diogenes--twice now you have referenced the violence going on at Occupy Oakland. What is your point plainly stated? You say they are not offering any solutions. Do traffic accident victims offer any solutions or do they simply need help? Recall the Arab Spring was luanched by a vegetable vendor upset at having to pay bribes to get his cart back from the police. He set himself on fire and died. What solution was he offering?===and revolution followed.
So what is your paradigm for this OWS? Is it round one in a formal debate? A traffic accident? People demonstrating their despair? or what other model are you using to post that the incidents of violence mean exactly what?
From your link: "Investigators do not yet know if the men in the fight were associated with Occupy Oakland, but they are looking into reports that some protest participants tried to break up the altercation, Jordan said."
"Jebus died for your sins." Doesn't mean a fricken thing and does not withstand rational analysis==outside of the dogma of special language. "There was violence at Oakland." Doesn't mean a fricken thing to me about the issues involved but it obviously does to the conservative mindset. Please explain.
So what is your paradigm for this OWS? Is it round one in a formal debate? A traffic accident? People demonstrating their despair? or what other model are you using to post that the incidents of violence mean exactly what?
From your link: "Investigators do not yet know if the men in the fight were associated with Occupy Oakland, but they are looking into reports that some protest participants tried to break up the altercation, Jordan said."
"Jebus died for your sins." Doesn't mean a fricken thing and does not withstand rational analysis==outside of the dogma of special language. "There was violence at Oakland." Doesn't mean a fricken thing to me about the issues involved but it obviously does to the conservative mindset. Please explain.
Dogma has its own special language
Diogenes--once again I wonder what you think your Dilbert Cartoon means? Can you explain it to us? I assume you think the 99 to 1 reference is a solid analogy to OWS? As in the cartoon, the 1% richest in America provide all the Jobs while the 99% do nothing?
Is that your point, or am I being too negative?
Assuming thats your point, isn't the truth that in the main the 1% are in banking and finance who in fact don't contribute anything to society and are in fact skimming their billions in various fraudulent/criminal schemes from the the remaining 99%? Making money by moving money around? Making money by gambling in lobbied and paid for unregulated markets. Making money by being bailed out by the 99%? Making money by creating jobs in wage slave shops overseas?
Or do you mean something else?
Is that your point, or am I being too negative?
Assuming thats your point, isn't the truth that in the main the 1% are in banking and finance who in fact don't contribute anything to society and are in fact skimming their billions in various fraudulent/criminal schemes from the the remaining 99%? Making money by moving money around? Making money by gambling in lobbied and paid for unregulated markets. Making money by being bailed out by the 99%? Making money by creating jobs in wage slave shops overseas?
Or do you mean something else?