DADT Activisits Subpeona The President

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Post by racehorse » 07-08-2010 01:32 AM

Kaztronic wrote:
Newsflash: the Republicans as a whole are NOT going to get on board - not until Gay Marriage equality is long established, DADT is ended, Gay families can legally adopt and raise children, and the Employee Non-Discrimination Act has been passed and is established law. Until those things happen, and until enough time passes to prove the stances against extending civil rights to the Gay Community were in fact discriminatory and nothing more - they will not get on board. The African-American Civil Rights movement proved this.

Taking the fight to the Republicans is a waste of time. It is those who CLAIM to support Gay Rights, and those who CAN affect change but tepidly advance that need to be pressured to follow through on their potential.


Kaz, While I agree Democrats make many promises on issues like DADT (often simply to attract votes) and have a dismal record of following through whereas Republicans usually make no such commitments, the GOP should never be written off as automatically opposed to ANY bills regarding fundamental fairness and Civil Rights of any kind for any group of Americans. Both Republican and Democratic lawmakers should be contacted or to use your term "pressured" on any issue that constituents feel is important to them. To not do so invites failure where it would not have to.

There is more support within the Republican Party than you and many others think especially among traditional Republicans (not tea party types who are clearly not traditional or classic Republicans) for issues like ending DADT, the votes may be there in the future from Republicans when they are really needed but not if they are dismissively scorned as a lost cause and no outreach made to obtain such votes, as there would be no indication there was popular support for such legislation. (Democratic votes wouldn't be there either, if this happened to them).

Also your statement quoted above is simply inaccurate. Republicans were much more supportive of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and all Civil Rights bills for African Americans than Democrats were. If the GOP had opposed instead of supporting such legislation it would have failed.

Snip:



Major Features of the Civil Rights Act of 1964


. . . The House of Representatives debated the bill for nine days and rejected nearly one hundred amendments designed to weaken the bill before passing H.R .7152 on February 10, 1964. Of the 420 members who voted, 290 supported the civil rights bill and 130 opposed it. Republicans favored the bill 138 to 34; Democrats supported it 152-96. It is interesting to note that Democrats from northern states voted overwhelmingly for the bill, 141 to 4, while Democrats from southern states voted overwhelmingly against the bill, 92 to 11. A bipartisan coalition of Republicans and northern Democrats was the key to the bill's success. This same arrangement would prove crucial later to the Senate's approval of the bill. . . .

The Republican Party was not so badly split as the Democrats by the civil rights issue. Only one Republican senator participated in the filibuster against the bill. In fact, since 1933, Republicans had a more positive record on civil rights than the Democrats. In the twenty-six major civil rights votes since 1933, a majority of Democrats opposed civil rights legislation in over 80 % of the votes. By contrast, the Republican majority favored civil rights in over 96 % of the votes. . . .

the Senate passed the bill by a 73 to 27 roll call vote. Six Republicans and 21 Democrats held firm and voted against passage. In all, the the 1964 civil rights debate had lasted a total of 83 days, slightly over 730 hours, and had taken up almost 3,000 pages in the Congressional Record.
Complete Article at:

http://www.congresslink.org/print_basic ... 64text.htm
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Post by Kaztronic » 07-08-2010 01:49 AM

RH,

You're absolutely correct about the Republican Party and the Civil Rights Act - I worded that paragraph poorly as it was my intent to be more broad with the concluding idea in that paragraph (I was actually thinking about George Wallace when I wrote that paragraph).

Those politicians who were opposed to the Civil Rights movement of the 60's were NOT going to get on board with the fight African-Americans were waging to gain equality in this nation. It was the passing of the Civil Rights Act that ultimately proved them wrong, and it was time that proved them wrong.

The party affiliation of those politicians was irrelevant - they simply were not going to get on board. The Southern Democrats were certainly amongst the most vocally & infamously opposed to the fight for Civil Rights - my words were not intended to cast a negative light on the Republican Party on that issue. The opposition to the movement was more geographically based than party based.

As for Gay Rights, as a whole (and I was deliberate in using the words "as a whole"), the Republican Party will not be the party that delivers equality for the Gay community in the near-term. The only potential for significant progress at this time exists with the Democrats - that does not mean that there are Republicans who cannot be counted on to make the right decision, and to be leaders on this issue (several probably can). It was a response to the idea that this type of thing should simply be taken up with the Republicans - as if that is where the problem solely exists (I think we both know that is nonsense) - nor would it likely be a successful strategy.
Last edited by Kaztronic on 07-08-2010 02:02 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by racehorse » 07-08-2010 01:56 AM

Kaztronic wrote: that does not mean that there are Republicans who cannot be counted on to make the right decision, and to be leaders on this issue (several probably can). It was a response to the idea that this type of thing should simply be taken up with the Republicans - as if that is where the problem solely exists (I think we both know that is nonsense) - nor would it likely be a successful strategy.


I agree, Kaz.
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Post by joequinn » 07-09-2010 12:22 PM

The resolution of this matter is quite simple...

The Bible, the word of Gawd on high, says that the Big Kahuna created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve or Jezebel and Eve. And the reason why the Big Kahuna created Adam and Eve --- and only Adam and Eve --- was so they could have dozens of kids who would fear da Lawd, grovel in his presence, and exterminate all who dissed his word. And Adam and Steve as well as Jezebel and Eve diss his word by their very existence.

The required action, as even Kaz will tell you, is quite simple. Kill 'em all, and let Gawd sort 'em out! Hack them to pieces in the middle of the street with axes! Then sit back and watch the ground open up, as devils arise from hell to drag the accursed souls of the damned to everlasting torment for their perversion of their sexual organs!

Then there will be peace on earth, and our President, no longer being disturbed by DADT subpoenas, will be able to check out his Goldman Sachs stock portfolio at his leisure! And he really needs to watch that portfolio --- because of that minor inconvenience down in the Gulf of Mexico, it has been turning somersaults over the past couple of weeks! And where do the antics of a coupla queers justify the President's attention, which should be devoted to truly important matters like his stock portfolio and his re-election campaign? The nerve! Kill 'em all just for that! Don't you agree? And hey, back me up here, Kaz! I need your support... :D :D :D
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Post by Rombaldi » 07-09-2010 03:19 PM

joequinn wrote: The required action, as even Kaz will tell you, is quite simple. Kill 'em all, and let Gawd sort 'em out! Hack them to pieces in the middle of the street with axes! Then sit back and watch the ground open up, as devils arise from hell to drag the accursed souls of the damned to everlasting torment for their perversion of their sexual organs!


You're sick Joe, truly and totally sick. Not even as a joke, that's offensive and disgusting.
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Post by Kaztronic » 07-09-2010 04:37 PM

Has anyone had a chance to read the questionaire sent out to service members regarding their feelings about working with openly Gay service members?

Is this the study that the Military and White House are going to use to determine how, and if DADT will be repealed?

Read the questions, do you find the wording to be troubling as well? It almost feels like a set-up, as if they are looking for an excuse to slam the brakes on repeal of DADT. It practically suggests that the "Homosexuals" will need straight service members to discuss with them proper conduct in a shower, and seriously questions whether or not the military would be ale to equally hold Homosexuals accountable to the same standards of personal conduct as straight people - how incredibly insulting. It's as if the survey writer views us as a bunch of sex-crazed lunatics - they might as well have added the multiple choice option of requesting "soap on a rope" so the boys wouldn't have to worry about dropping it in the shower.

~snip~

Servicemembers United, the nation's largest organization of gay and lesbian troops and veterans, today strongly condemned the biased and derogatory design of the long-awaited Defense Department survey on issues related to the repeal of the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" law. The survey, which was created and administered by the research firm Westat in conjunction with the Comprehensive Review Working Group, was sent out to 400,000 non-deployed active duty troops at a cost to taxpayers of $4.4 million.

"While it remains safe for gay and lesbian troops to participate in this survey, it is simply impossible to imagine a survey with such derogatory and insulting wording, assumptions, and insinuations going out about any other minority group in the military," said Alexander Nicholson, Executive Director of Servicemembers United and a former U.S. Army interrogator who was discharged under "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." "Unfortunately, this expensive survey stokes the fires of homophobia by its very design and will only make the Pentagon's responsibility to subdue homophobia as part of this inevitable policy change even harder. The Defense Department just shot itself in the foot by releasing such a flawed survey to 400,000 servicemembers, and it did so at an outrageous cost to taxpayers."

Nicholson added, "Flawed aspects of the survey include the unnecessary use of terms that are known to be inflammatory and bias-inducing in social science research, such as the clinical term 'homosexual;' an overwhelming focus on the potential negative aspects of repeal and little or no inclusion of the potential positive aspects of repeal or the negative aspects of the current policy; the repeated and unusual suggestion that a co-worker or leader might need to 'discuss' appropriate behavior and conduct with gay and lesbian troops; and more."

Service Members United

Survey
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Post by joequinn » 07-10-2010 11:04 AM

Rombaldi, you are every bit as much a fool as you are a hack. Kaz understands, perfectly, what I was REALLY saying...
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Post by Kaztronic » 07-14-2010 10:53 PM

joequinn wrote: Rombaldi, you are every bit as much a fool as you are a hack. Kaz understands, perfectly, what I was REALLY saying...


Hey Joe, I am not sure I would categorize Rombaldi as a fool - but I would consider him to be a blind man, governed by anger, willfully ignoring reality in favor of strictly partisan considerations.

As for you, I do understand what you were saying. It has taken me a very long time to get a feel for your message - but I get it, and frankly agree. Your colorful language, and extreme scenarios take a little getting used to. Their is however some wisdom between the lines worth paying attention to. I appreciate that you seem to consider your words and views with a big picture in mind, as opposed to the narrow tunnel vision of a partisan hack.

As for the political predictions you two make - I think you're both nuts :p
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Post by Rombaldi » 07-15-2010 07:05 PM

joequinn wrote: Rombaldi, you are every bit as much a fool as you are a hack. Kaz understands, perfectly, what I was REALLY saying...
Dear Joe..

Have a rubber mallet, a small cactus and a pad to kneel on. You SAID what you SAID. Your fake outrage is as phoney as the rest of your rants.

What you think of me is totally, absolutely irrelevant and as meaningless as the rest of your inflammatory and hate-filled posts.

Have a nice day :D
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Post by Kaztronic » 07-22-2010 08:11 PM

Someone else was fired by the government within the past couple of days.....

A West Point graduate, Arabic translator, Iraq War veteran.

Lt. Dan Choi has been officially notified by the military that he has been discharged from his duties as a soldier under the DADT policy.

________________________________________________

My Statement on DADT Discharge

This morning I received notification of my honorable discharge from the army under "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." After 11 years since beginning my journey at West Point and after 17 months of serving openly as an infantry officer this is both an infuriating and painful announcement.

But my service continues. To all those veterans who have endured similar trials and injustices or prematurely ended their military service because of the unjust policy: our fight has only begun.

The true honor and dignity of service does not come from a piece of paper, a pension or paycheck, a rank or status; only an unflinching commitment to improve the lives of others can determine the nature of one's service. From the first moment we put on our nation's uniform and swore our solemn oath, we committed ourselves to fight for freedom and justice; to defend our constitution and put the needs of others before our own. This is not an oath that I intend to abandon. Doing so at such a time, or remaining silent when our family and community members are fired or punished for who they truly are would be an unequivocal moral dereliction that tarnishes the honor of the uniform and insults the meaning of America.

Lt. Dan Choi

________________________________________________

Please recall the reason for his termination:

Rachel Maddow Interview

Given the myriad issues facing this country, if our elected officials had anywhere near the courage & conviction of Lt. Choi, perhaps we might be making progress as a nation.

Somehow I doubt he will be offered an apology by the White House and offered his job back. :mad:
Last edited by Kaztronic on 07-22-2010 08:19 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Reid Makes a Promise to Dan Choi for Gay Rights

Post by SETIsLady » 07-25-2010 12:31 PM

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid often raises the ire of liberal activists because of the slow pace of legislating in the Senate.

He acknowledged as much today at Netroots Nation, the largest gathering of liberal bloggers and activists of the year: "I know there are times, I'm told, that I get on your nerves," he said, eliciting laughter. "I'm here to tell you, you get on my nerves."

Reid said, however, that he and the left need each other. And he promised to keep up his end of the bargain with two moves: a commitment to reforming the filibuster, and a moving pledge - made personally to Lt. Dan Choi - to repeal the military's "don't ask, don't tell" law.

Choi this week was discharged from the military for being openly gay. Since coming out, the Iraq war veteran has been an outspoken advocate for repealing don't ask, don't tell.

Before Reid began to answer questions from the conference audience today, the discussion moderator handed him Choi's West Point ring as a gift. Reid expressed his gratitude but said he could not accept the gift.

"He earned his ring," Reid said. "I'm going to give it back to him."

Choi joined Reid on stage and gave the majority leader a hug. Audience members shouted at Reid to keep the ring until "don't ask, don't tell" is repealed.

"When the bill's signed, I'll keep it safely and then give it back to him," he said.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162- ... nContent.5

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Post by SETIsLady » 07-25-2010 12:37 PM

No matter what you think about Reid, I thought his comments were very touching.

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Post by Kaztronic » 07-25-2010 01:11 PM

Senator Reid's comments are indeed touching, as they have been in the past. The problem is that their has never been a shortage of touching comments. The fight Lt. Choi and groups like GetEqual are waging is to apply pressure to remind these politicians that touching comments are not enough, they must be converted in to action. I sincerely wonder (not in a snarky way) what goes through Reid's mind as he is handed that ring, and realizes it is the ring of a soldier who has just been fired because he would not hide who he was?

Below is a copy of Choi's letter handed to Reid with his ring:

~snip~

July 24, 2010
The Honorable Harry Reid, Senate Majority Leader:

Dear Harry:

My West Point ring has always symbolized an irrevocable promise: my commitment to serving America and my duty to defend freedom and justice. Today, with my discharge from the army for telling the truth, the ring takes on a new meaning, serving as a symbol for the enduring pain of broken promises.

America was founded on the principles of inalienable rights, equality, and the promise of justice for all. But today, Americans remain segregated from that promise. Fired from our jobs, discriminated in the military, denied equal access to our own integrity and acknowledgement of our families, we cannot conclude that our country has manifested its own promise, over 230 years later.

You have also made personal promises to me that the senate would repeal military discrimination before the end of 2009. Indeed, you sent a letter to President Obama and Secretary Gates, claiming that was the most you could do to save my career. You promised to lead on repeal of discrimination. I believed your promise because you are the most powerful senator in America. Truly, no one can do more. The false hope of your promise has been made real to me today with another letter: the letter terminating my military service.

But I present this ring to you, symbolizing my promise as a fellow citizen: my service continues.

I promise I will hold you accountable to your obligations to lead in the effort to end discrimination, both in the workplace and in the military. My promise is not merely written on a piece of paper or words alone, but in the hearts of every lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender American fired from their jobs because of broken promises from those who purport to be our friends. History will judge us and conclude that the greatest obstacles to justice were not the loud rants of bigots, but the quiet fears of those unwilling to stand firm in the fulfillment of their commitments. I refuse to allow my friends register themselves in history as obstacles to justice.

I commit to you my renewed pledge and continued service. To you and all those "friends" who manipulate, deceive and exploit our community, I will serve as a reminder of the consequences we all pay when allegiance to political careers takes higher priority than allegiance to America's promise.

Sincerely,
Lt. Dan Choi
US Army, Discharged under DADT

Pam's House Blend

__________________________________________________

If Reid survives this election season (and I personally hope he does), I look forward to the day he can hand not just the ring back to Lt. Choi, but his job as well.

Until DOMA & DADT are repealed, and until ENDA is passed, I hope for and support increased and contined pressure to act.
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