Agreed Joolz !Joolz wrote: Lively debate is one thing, but flippant chatter posing as debate is not truly debate. 'Nuff said by me on that.
Comments on Fantastic Forum
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Its not about the threads, at least for me its about how you communicate with others on the ship. I am not going to answer for Linnea, however I am tired of HB referring to those that are to the left of him like they have some sort of mental illness. Its been going on for a while and while its not directly insult one individual poster, it is an insult and intended to be one.
HB flat out ignoring Linnea's comments on that thread was disrespectful, it’s not the first time he has done it. So what does that say about him ? I for one am tired of adjusting the way I communicate with people on this ship, when the effort is not made in return.
Lately anytime anyone tries to engage in conversation in the threads that he is in. If you post something up that doesn't suit his point of view, you get a post from him that says "meanwhile" and a gallizon posts from him in an attempt to drowned out anyone that doesn't agree with him. It’s not conducive for conversation.
HB flat out ignoring Linnea's comments on that thread was disrespectful, it’s not the first time he has done it. So what does that say about him ? I for one am tired of adjusting the way I communicate with people on this ship, when the effort is not made in return.
Lately anytime anyone tries to engage in conversation in the threads that he is in. If you post something up that doesn't suit his point of view, you get a post from him that says "meanwhile" and a gallizon posts from him in an attempt to drowned out anyone that doesn't agree with him. It’s not conducive for conversation.
Well, this has been an ongoing reaction to how HB chooses to post. And no amount of pointing this out has seemed to make a difference. He seems to be involved in a self-identified 'war against liberals' - and the drift with the cynical one-liners, and/or simply ignoring posts - doesn't further discussion with most topics. Why rile people up and insult them?
I really value HB as a member of the FF community - as I do everyone who posts here.
And - I'm not too comfortable getting into such a personal vein here. Another thing that is making me uncomfortable - now that this has been brought forward - is that HB is currently suspended from posting and unable to comment. I have to now end that suspension - in all fairness.
We seem to be stuck on some of these issues - and need to move forward. Moving forward will involve no longer tolerating flaming the board - and/or serving as a 'launch point' for disruptive extremists views* meant solely to flame the board.
eta: *This isn't meant to discourage discussion of extreme viewpoints held by members of the forum. The reference is to the 'hot button' talking points du jour which seem to co-ordinate and get distributed throughout the blogosphere, cable news and radio - and meant to advance an agenda and inflame. Check sources and be sure we are dealing with facts.
I really value HB as a member of the FF community - as I do everyone who posts here.
And - I'm not too comfortable getting into such a personal vein here. Another thing that is making me uncomfortable - now that this has been brought forward - is that HB is currently suspended from posting and unable to comment. I have to now end that suspension - in all fairness.
We seem to be stuck on some of these issues - and need to move forward. Moving forward will involve no longer tolerating flaming the board - and/or serving as a 'launch point' for disruptive extremists views* meant solely to flame the board.
eta: *This isn't meant to discourage discussion of extreme viewpoints held by members of the forum. The reference is to the 'hot button' talking points du jour which seem to co-ordinate and get distributed throughout the blogosphere, cable news and radio - and meant to advance an agenda and inflame. Check sources and be sure we are dealing with facts.
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Raggedyann
- Pirate
- Posts: 5250
- Joined: 08-22-2006 04:50 PM
Linda, I think you hit the nail on the head when you brought up respect. I think that's what we're really talking about here. When there's mutual respect, much can be accomplished. But without it, there's not much point in continuing. IMHO. I totally understand that point of view, and agree.
ETA: I agree with what you said about the disrespect shown to Linnea, too.
ETA: I agree with what you said about the disrespect shown to Linnea, too.
Last edited by Joolz on 11-21-2010 05:22 AM, edited 1 time in total.
Anchors Aweigh!Raggedyann wrote: How about 3 strikes and you're out? If someone hasn't learned after that many times, then it's fairly obvious they don't give a damn and they never will.
I tend to agree, RA. Some people (not pointing the finger at anyone here) are never going to change, no matter how many chances they get.
Anchors Aweigh!
I'm with Live365 regarding the filters bit.
Honestly, I see the same level of rancor that is being questioned here coming from multiple angles when it comes to matters of politics - and these posts are no different in substance, sting, or style than what HB3 types. Filters play a role in how we view them however.
It's the filters that prevent us (or in some cases cause us - all of us at times - to join in) from seeing that we're all the same at the end of the day.
Honestly, I enjoy reading HB3's comments because he is hitting upon something that I think merit's serious consideration. The inherent hypocrisy of the left, and of those who self-identify as being "progressive" (honestly, I think there are only one or two actual progressives on this board - the rest are strict partisan's masquerading as being issues ahead of party type folks). He may not be pointing the finger in both directions, although it certainly could be pointed in both directions - however there aren't really any right-wing members on this board to point to in that regard - but he is hitting upon a reality that is part of the undoing of this nation (and again, this issue cuts across all political spectrums). Both sides are filled with the same self-assured arrogance, the same dismissive attitudes towards the opposite political party, the same hostility towards cooperation. If you can't see that, I suggest that Live's post bares further consideration.
I was actually thinking of filters just the other day - I had no intention of replying to this thread because I didn't feel it would be constructive, but Live's post put in to words (more succinct than I am capable of) my feelings on this matter, and have inspired me to reply. Honestly, this forum has often reminded me of that great boogeyman: Talk Radio. I hear on this forum the exact same level of venom, intellectual dishonesty, propoganda, and childishness that Talk Radio is so famous for - and it comes from every political direction (I don't pretend to be above any of this either btw, I've done my bit to participate and play with fire as well). I've sat by and listened over the past years over and over again as people go on and on about opponents of Obama being racists, being stupid, etc..... I've watched with a touch of horror at the level of venom spewed towards Sarah Palin (and honestly, I don't get her appeal either - but she is inspirational to a lot of people, and just like you, they care about this country and want to move forward in a positive way - they just see things differently, they are not morons, they are not racists, they are not influenced anymore than any of us are by corporate interference), and questioned how anyone who could be so venomous towards Sarah Palin could be so angry about resistance to the leadership of Barack Obama (another politician I admittedly don't get, because I think he is at best a mediocre President). It's because of filters that this type of thing happens. We all see things through filters, and when you take a totally dispassionate look at the propoganda that pops up in many of these posts, at the cheap shots, at the typical partisan rhetoric, you can quickly see the reality that we are all mini talk-radio hosts here.
I'm going to be brutally honest here, and this was my main reason for avoiding this thread - but I have an uneasy feeling lately and have decided it's worth writing (even if it represents my final words on this forum).
I speak with HB3 occasionally via e-mail. We've discussed books, music, politics (we disagree as often as we agree - whether people want to read those posts or not), and occasionally discuss the forum itself - mainly why we both feel drawn to write here (interestingly, it's the same sense of community mentioned by most here that seems to keep us writing). Despite conspiracy theories to the contrary, we have never once co-ordinated a single posting. Nor have either of us ever (to my knowledge) bent on our actual feelings on an issue to prop up the other's views in an argument (it is why I am comfortable having a discourse on these matters outside of the forum) - it's important to get that point out I think based upon what is happening here. Anyway, as we headed towards the last election, I recall both of us wondering aloud what the reaction to the elections would be.
One of my concerns was that we might be headed towards an ideological purge here, or a hardening line between preffered political viewpoints over others. In some ways, this feels like a realization of those concerns (based upon all of the rhetoric of "right-wing" talk, while excusing behavior of the other side that has been mentioned numerous times. It's the filters that lead to someone like HB3 being suspended multiple times, while people like Rombaldi get the occasional "cut it out" post/warning - which has little effect of course - btw, I don't think either of them should be suspended). First off, HB3 is no right-winger, I choose to defend him on that point. Based upon what I've read, I don't see any kind of political affiliation of any sort when it comes to his writing. I think it is an extremely reasonable point of view for members here to be concerned about, and opposed to immigration reform, building mosque's near Ground Zero, being PC towards Muslims when it comes to security matters, etc..... There are legitimate realities that this country has dealt with, and is dealing with that lead to those concerns, and they have merit. I use those examples because I happen to disagree with HB3 on all of those points, vehemently (these would be some of our arguments that tend to be ignored in favor of conspiracy theories of co-ordinated posting). I respect the concern behind those sentiments however, and feel it is beneath us to say that they have no place here. It is this same type of dismissal of opinions that has (in my opinion) led the Democratic party towards such enormous defeats by an enthusiastic voter base that has been ridiculed as racist morons (btw, that type of posting has happened here so many times over the past 12 months without so much as an eyebrow being raised..... filters). This is why this feels like an ideological purge, that will leave only non-challenging opposition viewpoints in it's wake.
Let me end this post with this, we're adults. Some of us (I know I have) get overly-sensitive about those who disagree with us, or get upset when we face strong opposition to our feelings and viewpoints. As adults, we should be capable of (at least), agreeing to disagree - and moving on (and yes, that can be difficult). On the other hand, at best, we should be able to flesh each other out.
The best posts I have read on this forum as regards politics have taken place between Linnea, HB3, and SquidInk. On each occasion, the conscious decision was made to set aside partisan crap, and dig deeply in to a topic. When you guys dig in to these issues, I can only stand aside and watch. You all write at such a level under those circumstances that I cannot even imagine a way to enter the conversation. It's inspiring, challenging, and it represents the true potential of this forum in my opinion. Sure, you don't agree in the end - but it seems as if you "agree to disagree" when all is said and done. In my opinion, following this present course will put an end to such debate in the future.
Just my two cents, if the words are unwelcome, so be it. I would be proud to have these stand as my final words on the forum, because they represent the other side of the coin. We are treading on a very fine tightrope type line here, as regards this forums future when it comes to divergent views. My hope moving forward are that these paragraphs not stand as my final words here, and that if a zero tolerance policy is to be pursued, that is be pursued without filters of any kind (easier said than done IMO). You mentioned Joe Quinn earlier Linnea, as he had been banned from this forum several times, I spent some time this evening wondering what his thought's on this matter might be..... Perhaps those thoughts remain, buried in the archives of this forum waiting to be unearthed, along with his thoughts on the future of active dissent here. Perhaps he is looking over all of our shoulders right now as we walk the tightwire, flanked by life and the funeral pyre.
Honestly, I see the same level of rancor that is being questioned here coming from multiple angles when it comes to matters of politics - and these posts are no different in substance, sting, or style than what HB3 types. Filters play a role in how we view them however.
It's the filters that prevent us (or in some cases cause us - all of us at times - to join in) from seeing that we're all the same at the end of the day.
Honestly, I enjoy reading HB3's comments because he is hitting upon something that I think merit's serious consideration. The inherent hypocrisy of the left, and of those who self-identify as being "progressive" (honestly, I think there are only one or two actual progressives on this board - the rest are strict partisan's masquerading as being issues ahead of party type folks). He may not be pointing the finger in both directions, although it certainly could be pointed in both directions - however there aren't really any right-wing members on this board to point to in that regard - but he is hitting upon a reality that is part of the undoing of this nation (and again, this issue cuts across all political spectrums). Both sides are filled with the same self-assured arrogance, the same dismissive attitudes towards the opposite political party, the same hostility towards cooperation. If you can't see that, I suggest that Live's post bares further consideration.
I was actually thinking of filters just the other day - I had no intention of replying to this thread because I didn't feel it would be constructive, but Live's post put in to words (more succinct than I am capable of) my feelings on this matter, and have inspired me to reply. Honestly, this forum has often reminded me of that great boogeyman: Talk Radio. I hear on this forum the exact same level of venom, intellectual dishonesty, propoganda, and childishness that Talk Radio is so famous for - and it comes from every political direction (I don't pretend to be above any of this either btw, I've done my bit to participate and play with fire as well). I've sat by and listened over the past years over and over again as people go on and on about opponents of Obama being racists, being stupid, etc..... I've watched with a touch of horror at the level of venom spewed towards Sarah Palin (and honestly, I don't get her appeal either - but she is inspirational to a lot of people, and just like you, they care about this country and want to move forward in a positive way - they just see things differently, they are not morons, they are not racists, they are not influenced anymore than any of us are by corporate interference), and questioned how anyone who could be so venomous towards Sarah Palin could be so angry about resistance to the leadership of Barack Obama (another politician I admittedly don't get, because I think he is at best a mediocre President). It's because of filters that this type of thing happens. We all see things through filters, and when you take a totally dispassionate look at the propoganda that pops up in many of these posts, at the cheap shots, at the typical partisan rhetoric, you can quickly see the reality that we are all mini talk-radio hosts here.
I'm going to be brutally honest here, and this was my main reason for avoiding this thread - but I have an uneasy feeling lately and have decided it's worth writing (even if it represents my final words on this forum).
I speak with HB3 occasionally via e-mail. We've discussed books, music, politics (we disagree as often as we agree - whether people want to read those posts or not), and occasionally discuss the forum itself - mainly why we both feel drawn to write here (interestingly, it's the same sense of community mentioned by most here that seems to keep us writing). Despite conspiracy theories to the contrary, we have never once co-ordinated a single posting. Nor have either of us ever (to my knowledge) bent on our actual feelings on an issue to prop up the other's views in an argument (it is why I am comfortable having a discourse on these matters outside of the forum) - it's important to get that point out I think based upon what is happening here. Anyway, as we headed towards the last election, I recall both of us wondering aloud what the reaction to the elections would be.
One of my concerns was that we might be headed towards an ideological purge here, or a hardening line between preffered political viewpoints over others. In some ways, this feels like a realization of those concerns (based upon all of the rhetoric of "right-wing" talk, while excusing behavior of the other side that has been mentioned numerous times. It's the filters that lead to someone like HB3 being suspended multiple times, while people like Rombaldi get the occasional "cut it out" post/warning - which has little effect of course - btw, I don't think either of them should be suspended). First off, HB3 is no right-winger, I choose to defend him on that point. Based upon what I've read, I don't see any kind of political affiliation of any sort when it comes to his writing. I think it is an extremely reasonable point of view for members here to be concerned about, and opposed to immigration reform, building mosque's near Ground Zero, being PC towards Muslims when it comes to security matters, etc..... There are legitimate realities that this country has dealt with, and is dealing with that lead to those concerns, and they have merit. I use those examples because I happen to disagree with HB3 on all of those points, vehemently (these would be some of our arguments that tend to be ignored in favor of conspiracy theories of co-ordinated posting). I respect the concern behind those sentiments however, and feel it is beneath us to say that they have no place here. It is this same type of dismissal of opinions that has (in my opinion) led the Democratic party towards such enormous defeats by an enthusiastic voter base that has been ridiculed as racist morons (btw, that type of posting has happened here so many times over the past 12 months without so much as an eyebrow being raised..... filters). This is why this feels like an ideological purge, that will leave only non-challenging opposition viewpoints in it's wake.
Let me end this post with this, we're adults. Some of us (I know I have) get overly-sensitive about those who disagree with us, or get upset when we face strong opposition to our feelings and viewpoints. As adults, we should be capable of (at least), agreeing to disagree - and moving on (and yes, that can be difficult). On the other hand, at best, we should be able to flesh each other out.
The best posts I have read on this forum as regards politics have taken place between Linnea, HB3, and SquidInk. On each occasion, the conscious decision was made to set aside partisan crap, and dig deeply in to a topic. When you guys dig in to these issues, I can only stand aside and watch. You all write at such a level under those circumstances that I cannot even imagine a way to enter the conversation. It's inspiring, challenging, and it represents the true potential of this forum in my opinion. Sure, you don't agree in the end - but it seems as if you "agree to disagree" when all is said and done. In my opinion, following this present course will put an end to such debate in the future.
Just my two cents, if the words are unwelcome, so be it. I would be proud to have these stand as my final words on the forum, because they represent the other side of the coin. We are treading on a very fine tightrope type line here, as regards this forums future when it comes to divergent views. My hope moving forward are that these paragraphs not stand as my final words here, and that if a zero tolerance policy is to be pursued, that is be pursued without filters of any kind (easier said than done IMO). You mentioned Joe Quinn earlier Linnea, as he had been banned from this forum several times, I spent some time this evening wondering what his thought's on this matter might be..... Perhaps those thoughts remain, buried in the archives of this forum waiting to be unearthed, along with his thoughts on the future of active dissent here. Perhaps he is looking over all of our shoulders right now as we walk the tightwire, flanked by life and the funeral pyre.
Last edited by Kaztronic on 11-21-2010 07:24 AM, edited 1 time in total.
"You'll get used to my babbling, all the others have." - Anna Madrigal from "Tales Of The City" by Armistead MaupinAs I said earlier, it all boils down to RESPECT. That's really the heart of the matter.
Sure, Live has a good point about filters. I can agree with that. I sometimes refer to this as the lens of perception, but it's essentially the same thing. Of course, we ALL have filters in place. EVERYONE does. They are an aspect of culture. Every culture. Everywhere. Around the globe and throughout time. They are what they are, and can't be escaped. They are a part of the experience of being human. The best we can do is be aware of them, and try to see things through another's eyes whenever we can.
But in order to DO that, it's necessary to have RESPECT for one another. Without that, there can be no discussion among equals, no equitable consideration of the way others may think, believe, or live their lives.
All fancy words aside here, that's really the bottom line here. The issue is about simple RESPECT. Always has been.
There are a few others here who DO exhibit that respect. Racehorse is one. He and I disagree on many fundamental issues, yet we have found a way toward common ground BECAUSE we respect each other. The same is true with Live, I believe. She and I may also disagree, but there is mutual respect between us that allows us to be friends while we respect our differences. This is the way forward.
Blatant disrespect and outright dismissal of the validity of another's thoughts and opinions is not conducive to any sort of discussion that could lead to mutual understanding. PERIOD. This is not the way forward.
So, I'm leaving this at that. From where I sit this early morning, the issue is really very simple. It's about respect.
Sure, Live has a good point about filters. I can agree with that. I sometimes refer to this as the lens of perception, but it's essentially the same thing. Of course, we ALL have filters in place. EVERYONE does. They are an aspect of culture. Every culture. Everywhere. Around the globe and throughout time. They are what they are, and can't be escaped. They are a part of the experience of being human. The best we can do is be aware of them, and try to see things through another's eyes whenever we can.
But in order to DO that, it's necessary to have RESPECT for one another. Without that, there can be no discussion among equals, no equitable consideration of the way others may think, believe, or live their lives.
All fancy words aside here, that's really the bottom line here. The issue is about simple RESPECT. Always has been.
There are a few others here who DO exhibit that respect. Racehorse is one. He and I disagree on many fundamental issues, yet we have found a way toward common ground BECAUSE we respect each other. The same is true with Live, I believe. She and I may also disagree, but there is mutual respect between us that allows us to be friends while we respect our differences. This is the way forward.
Blatant disrespect and outright dismissal of the validity of another's thoughts and opinions is not conducive to any sort of discussion that could lead to mutual understanding. PERIOD. This is not the way forward.
So, I'm leaving this at that. From where I sit this early morning, the issue is really very simple. It's about respect.
Anchors Aweigh!Very heartfelt and eloquent post, Kaz - regarding your view of the usual P&G discussions that transpire here daily. And, yes, we all do have filters in play which effect all of us to a lesser or greater extent. However, this is not the focus of this thread.
There is no ideological purge underway here - and I believe that has also been addressed in this thread.
There are two main issues. The first is to specifically remove the Fantastic Forum from play as part of the blogosphere that just 'makes stuff up' which is soon sourced as 'news' by major distribution points of the right. And I am serious about this.
The second is not allowing 'ideological flaming' of the board, especially as an ongoing and disruptive 'posting style' or agenda. This practice is very different from the usual heated exchanges in P&G.
Also want to note here that Rombaldi did comply, finally, with my request to stop using expressions as 'GOPigs' and 'Filth'. Bless him! I was so damned pleased that I actually shed tears of joy. And you didn't notice? He was doing very well for several weeks - and just recently, a few days ago, fell off the wagon for some reason. I have confidence he will clean this up again soon.
As for Joe Quinn, I can imagine him pronouncing that we are all fiddling as Rome burns to the ground.
There is no ideological purge underway here - and I believe that has also been addressed in this thread.
There are two main issues. The first is to specifically remove the Fantastic Forum from play as part of the blogosphere that just 'makes stuff up' which is soon sourced as 'news' by major distribution points of the right. And I am serious about this.
The second is not allowing 'ideological flaming' of the board, especially as an ongoing and disruptive 'posting style' or agenda. This practice is very different from the usual heated exchanges in P&G.
Also want to note here that Rombaldi did comply, finally, with my request to stop using expressions as 'GOPigs' and 'Filth'. Bless him! I was so damned pleased that I actually shed tears of joy. And you didn't notice? He was doing very well for several weeks - and just recently, a few days ago, fell off the wagon for some reason. I have confidence he will clean this up again soon.
As for Joe Quinn, I can imagine him pronouncing that we are all fiddling as Rome burns to the ground.
Regarding the blogoshere. Has anyone else noticed that almost all the headlines attached to articles are blown out of proportion ? On newspapers, or other sites. I can get enraged when I read a headline and then I read the article and they have really made a big deal out of nothing and the important stuff gets buried.
They do this to drive traffic to the site. But the problem with this is most people read the headline and then start passing these things around the net. And I have noticed most people don't even bother to read the articles before they react, this I feel is part of the problem with media today. We are all functioning on a constant knee jerk reaction, and I think "they" like it that way.
They do this to drive traffic to the site. But the problem with this is most people read the headline and then start passing these things around the net. And I have noticed most people don't even bother to read the articles before they react, this I feel is part of the problem with media today. We are all functioning on a constant knee jerk reaction, and I think "they" like it that way.