Kaztronic wrote:
Hi Live and Linnea,
To answer your question Live (I'm actually sorry to do this), but I do have things to say, that hasn't changed. In fact, I've been typing away doing my thing, talking about the topics that interest me, arguing, debating, agreeing, discussing, learning, fuming, smiling, laughing, crying, etc..... I'm just not doing that here at the Fantastic Forum these days.
I have to disagree with your assessment that activity here is down due to it being a "slow world" right now. The fact is, there are other forums out there with hundreds of members posting away all day and night about many of the same topics once discussed so passionately and honestly here. It has been exciting, surprising, joyful, and sad (all at the same time) to discover that there are several old Fantastic Forum members posting out there still, sometimes you can tell it's them by their writing & interests - other times they come right on out and say hello!
The reason the Fantastic Forum is slowing down, it's membership dwindling, is internal - not external.
Frankly, there isn't much of interest to read here anymore. There are relatively few spirited debates anymore, especially in the areas that predominantly drive the forum these days (politics and general current events).
Why is that?
Simple, there frankly exists a lack of diversity of opinion. This impacts the information shared, and obviously the discussions that take place. Thus the dominos begin to fall, and the problem builds to the point where there aren't even that many lurkers anymore.
It wasn't always that way, was it?
The natural follow-up question thus becomes, what happened to cause a lack of diversity of opinion here? Why are some members who have demonstrated an interest in alternative, or less than popular opinions in the past silent now, whereas they were outspoken in the past?
It's easy to fall in to the trap of citing those that remain as proof that such alternative opinions remain here - but I submit that such a focus is in error as it ignores the problem of those who have left, leaving this forum relatively silent these days.
I'll break this down in to two parts; 1. Why I personally stopped writing here, and 2. What I see that is different where I do still participate.
I stopped writing here because It's become very difficult to discuss the issues anymore. As time has gone on, I have watched as the issues have been shoved aside in favor of partisan politics & allegiances (Psychicwolfs posts serving as a major exception in my opinion - although they garner far less replies than say, Cherry Kelly for example - why is that?). At least half of the threads in P&G are simply hit pieces on Republicans, and often ugly at that. It so dominates the conversation here - and frankly, this place doesn't have the membership levels of DU to pull that kind of thing off.
You have to know going in to any conversation that if you are going to share an opinion, or information that does not reflect well on Democrats, President Obama, and/or the policies they put forth that you are generally going to have problems. If you were foolish enough to share an opinion with, or quote someone like Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, or Rush Limbaugh for instance on an issue you wished to discuss, then the topic would most likely instantly change from the issue - to the source or personality quoted. As time has gone on, this has effectively chipped away at so many sources of discussion and information - leaving the forum stuck with limited resources of information (since sourcing information is often deemed to be extremely important here). Whether you agree with the people I used as an example or not is less relevant than the interesting issue driven conversations that could take place in my opinion. You can be almost certain though that such conversations will get ugly, and if you share an opinion with these personalities, you can be certain that you will be dismissed and found guilty by association. It's a bullying tactic that has been in place for a while now, and has slowly eroded any two-sided political conversation. After a while you have to ask yourself, if you can't find the information or analysis you want on Huffington Post or Mother Jones, then why bother?
This behavior extends beyond sources of information though, it hits everywhere. You have a little group of people who treat this forum as their kingdom, who determine which opinions are valid and worthy of discussion. I think this was perfectly in evidence the other day when Megman was attacked, in group fashion because he had the nerve to discuss the U.S. Space Program when he was a Canadian. The question was asked, by someone who mind you has had zero problems sharing their opinions on what other countries ought to be doing, the question was asked "when did you last pay taxes in America?" or something like that. This was UGLY. It was designed to effectively dismiss his opinion as an "outsider". Anything he might have offered to the discussion was deemed frankly irrelevant - so he let her have it in response, rightly so in my opinion (and was far more tame than some of what is written towards people like CK by some of those that this group supports) - further, he accurately predicted the little group getting involved in making him look bad. When a mob comes after you Live, it's very annoying and makes it unlikely that a person will want to contribute in the future. Amazingly, in all of the anger at his calling this person out (who had pulled the same ugly stunt citing his Canadian citizenry as reason for him to basically "shut up" in the past on more than one occasion), lost in all of that was the attempt to invalidate the opinion of another long-time poster because their information was somehow unworthy - the overall issue was of secondary importance. So, what happened, a long-time member of the Forum is now gone - and no one bats so much as an eyelash.
It goes beyond that, I've watched over the last week as two separate members have been accused of being paid operatives of the right-wing..... again, an attempt to dismiss, discredit, silence, distract, etc..... The issues take second place. These people are not welcome here by this little group, is it any surprise that they stop posting? To that end, guess what? I know of another long-time member who is quitting this place for much the same reasons many of us have cited.
In my case, I was dismissed as a closet Republican, although I am an Independent, and my arguments were dismissed constantly as "false equivalencies", and after a while simply ignored. This group was ugly to deal with, because the personal (which always exists in heated discussions and these types of forums) totally overwhelmed the underlying issues offered up for discussion.
So Live, why bother posting?
Now, what about these other places where I find myself currently participating?
Well, they also get ugly and personal occasionally. They get intense, they are filled with arguments, sometimes insults. Feelings are hurt, etc......
What's the difference in these places? Well, I've not seen attempts to simply discredit other members as having opinions that are frankly irrelevant, unworthy, not applicable due to whatever reasons - and most importantly I've not seen any concerted efforts by those who often agree with each other to go after specific people and shut them up by relentlessly following them and attacking them. There are no cliques, there isn't nearly as much piling on, and their is no dismissal of opinions - the opinions are discussed, relevant information is brought in to the discussion and is not dismissed outright. There are no shrines to the President and his party, there are not multiple threads dedicated each day to the evil nature of either party. Heck, people concede that they can be wrong from time to time, concede they are not sure, concede that we may not know how things will work out until down the road, change their minds, etc.....
These places have spirited conversation, devils advocate conversations, and go out of their way to welcome and embrace alternative viewpoints and encourage argument / debate along those lines, whereas the Fantastic Forum seems controlled by a select few who determine what is worthy of the forums time.
You know what's funny and sad, these same people who fought so hard to pile on everyone with an alternative viewpoint have nothing to say anymore other than "hello", "I agree", "right on", "good one", "I love you", and "thanks for sharing that article". They've no one left to talk to. It all comes down to a lack of diversity in opinion here, and the root causes of that. Don't believe me, well take a look at whose posts garner the most responses these days - Cherry Kelly's. Simply put, these people have run out of people to talk to - and that is why the forum is dying, if not already dead.
I'll leave you with this Live, I can offer no solutions to resolve this and bring the forum back to life. I happen to think it comes back to the dominos I mentioned earlier - at this point it is possible that too many have fallen. Moderation is not the answer, being polite is probably not necessary either. You certainly can't go after this group, because if they left, well - that would solve nothing and likely make it even worse because there would be no one left. So it in effect comes down to a lack of information here at the forum, and a lack of two-way dialogue on the issues. Until that is embraced again, and until it starts again the dominos will continue to fall. People say, "if it's not broken, don't fix it".... well, guys, it's broken - so, if you want it to work properly again, assuming the parts are salvageable, well, then you need to fix it.
I'll tell you this, I miss posting here, and I miss the people who have left the forum. I miss what they brought to the forum, the fascinating ideas, opinions, and information. As time has gone on, they have all generally mentioned the same thing, that their opinion no longer counted, and frankly did not feel welcomed here anymore. This was once an educational, spirited place - now it is a nearly empty room still reliving an election that took place over a year ago. I loved the Fantastic Forum (and still do), I supported it - with donations when I was able, but mostly with my writing and passion. The Fantastic Forum was a place tha I valued very much. And when, like others who have left, when I no longer felt welcome I asked myself if there was any place else out there that had what this place once did. I went out and found it, I come back and write this because I hope that one day, before this charmed space disappears, that it can re-capture the magic it once had.
For you Live, I know that this place is very much about community - if you wish to preserve this community, you need to analyze why people are leaving it behind for other venues. Remember this, it is folly to think they no longer care about the issues, are no longer passionate, and most importantly - no longer write - we do, just not here right now.
You know what else is sad, in the past when I might have written about something like this, I would have cared very much about the replies it might garner, and if necessary, I would have worked hard to defend myself - right now, I'll probably end up saying: why bother?
Kaz, this post is overly long, accusatory in tone and substance, and takes no personal responsibility for your own part in harassing others or driving good posters away.
I was harassed by you when I came back after a long hiatus from posting. I made a simple tongue-in-cheek comment meant to be humorous in response to one of your posts that you took as an insult and then proceeded to follow me into other threads all over the forum to harass me -- you and HB3 both -- about being a "feminist," as if that was a dirty word. You are not innocent.
You are also primarily responsible for driving away another long-time member who was a very good poster, who posted many thread-starters, and was always a great one to engage in dialogue with others whose opinions differed from her own -- passionately, but civilly, without rancor or name-calling. She was a great poster, and I miss her. Again, you are not innocent.
I wasn't going to get involved in this, but after sleeping on it, decided that those things needed to be said, so I did. I am not interested in laboring the point with long-winded accusations and/or defenses. What's done is done. But to come in here and condescendingly finger-point without owning your own faults deserved a response. So, there it is.
Anchors Aweigh!
